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Darwinian Dissonance?
Internet Infidels ^ | Timeless | Paul A. Dernavich

Posted on 11/06/2003 7:34:45 PM PST by Heartlander

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This is from Internet Infidels – an atheistic site.

Although the majority of the views from this website do not represent my views in any fashion, I can relate to this ‘one’ article.

I respect the fact that they actually put it on their website.

1 posted on 11/06/2003 7:34:45 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: Alamo-Girl; Phaedrus; betty boop; scripter; AndrewC
FYI - Ping 'Thingy'
2 posted on 11/06/2003 8:12:59 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: *crevo_list; VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Scully; Piltdown_Woman
H E A R T M A R K E R

3 posted on 11/06/2003 8:51:21 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
read later
4 posted on 11/06/2003 8:54:02 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Heartlander
Pretty.
5 posted on 11/06/2003 8:54:45 PM PST by js1138
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To: Heartlander
Great catch! A very interesting article, especially coming from that particular website. Thank you for the heads up!
6 posted on 11/06/2003 8:54:57 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: js1138
Hey, you’re not coming on to me buddy?! ; )- LOL!
7 posted on 11/06/2003 9:27:17 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
Thanks for the ping. I'll have to read this tomorrow.
8 posted on 11/06/2003 9:43:06 PM PST by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: Heartlander
<yawn>

The article shows the same tired misunderstanding of where morality & consciousness come from that many creationists here do.

I may be a collection of atoms, but this collection is organized in a self-sustaining way, that is able to perceive itself and understand the world around it, and understands cause vs. effect & past vs. future, and wants very much to remain a self-sustaining totality.

It's this totality which defines "me". And all talk of morality concerns this totality and what is necessary to sustain it. The fact that a forest is made up of lots of trees doesn't mean a forest is "just a big tree".

9 posted on 11/06/2003 10:56:22 PM PST by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: Heartlander
Pretty weak. Language is limited and sometimes people use metaphors.
10 posted on 11/06/2003 10:58:36 PM PST by MattAMiller
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To: Heartlander
I dislike arguments from semantics. "She said 'design.'" (A lot of people do that without meaning it in the ID sense.) "He said 'sudden' and 'saltation.'" (He could intend a punctuated-equilibrium 20,000-year sort of "sudden.") "That could be taken to mean the species is planning its mutations." (But the speaker probably didn't intend for you to do that.)

Most people use anthropomorphic, analogy-rich language, as it tends to be more understandable overall than the dry-as-dust technical jargon of some papers. Geologically "sudden" is different from "suddenly one day." A scientist talking about the "design" of an organ may not necessarily think it was designed by Zeus, as "design" may just be shorthand for "the way it has evolved to work."

11 posted on 11/07/2003 6:48:34 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Heartlander; betty boop
What a delicious article!

... today's prominent Darwin defenders ... a collective case of cognitive dissonance ... Dr. Massimo Pigliucci ... describes the natural world as being a result of "non-conscious" creativity, "non-intelligent design," and "chaotic self-organizing phenomena." If these terms mean something very specific to evolutionary biologists, it cannot be anything that is inferred by the actual words themselves. For the very notion of design cannot be thought of in any other terms than that of a conscious being with an intent, a scheme, a protocol, a plan, or an intellect. Each of the 21 definitions of "design" in Webster's pertain to a living subject, human by implication. This is not to say that random arrangements of things cannot be fantastically complex; but if they are not purposefully complex then the word "design" is incorrect ... And "chaotic self-organizing" is a cluster of words similar to "triangular circles": an excessively clever term to describe something that can't possibly exist ... Spare me, please, from blind and random "improvements." ... in order for anything to be a success, it must have had some prior goal or standard to fulfill ... Naturalistically speaking, anything is successful if it exists. Even a pebble is successful at being a pebble ... Robert Wright ... goes on to refer to natural selection as a "tireless engineer" with a "remarkable knack for invention," even comparing it to a brain, indicative of a higher purpose, which stacks the evolutionary deck and responds to positive feedback ... Whether it is by ignorance, defiance or the limits of our language, these Darwin defenders liberally use terms which are not available to them, given their presuppositions .. the problem I have always had with the term "natural selection." We all know what it means, and I can't dispute it's validity as a model for the differentiation of species. As a word couplet, though, it is a grammatical gargoyle, like the term "cybersex." ... One could make a hasty selection or a careful selection; it is still a selection. But natural? A selection is a choice ... As a technical term, it is a misleading oxymoron ... The words used by modern-day Darwinists are not a sidelight, they are symptomatic of a fissure in the structure of their thought. I believe that when someone wrongly calls the evolutionary process a purposeful "design," it is not because of sloppy writing, but because of intentional and thoughtful writing. It is because that is the only idea that will work. It is the only word that will work. It is because there is something brilliant, something awesome, and something significant about our world, and our instinct is to want to know who gets credit for it. The impulse is innate and proper. It is the decision to give credit to an abstract and unauthored "process" which is out of sync ... Life is an elusive concept that cannot be quantitatively assessed. As Stanley Jaki writes in his most recent book ... Moreover, long before one takes up the evolution of life, one is faced with a question of metaphysics whenever one registers life. Life is not seen with physical eyes alone unless those eyes are supplemented with the vision of the mind. No biologist contemptuous of metaphysics can claim, if he is consistent, that he has observed life, let alone its evolution. We then start to have an aesthetic appreciation for the beauty and ingenuity of these life forms, and it is not long before we get around to talking about abstract concepts such as rights, justice, and equality, and assigning some species - namely, us - some kind of moral responsibilities for them, none of which can be measured according to scientific methods.

That, then, is why the language is confused: because the ideas are confused, because the mind is confused. To the extent that our Darwinians and humanists seek answers to humanity's dilemmas using the natural sciences, they are absolutely on the right track. To the extent that they reject the idea of a divine or supernatural creator using the natural sciences, they are not only overstepping the boundaries of their field, but they are plainly contradicted by their language, their goals, and their lives.

Or, to put it another way: The emperor has no clothes.

12 posted on 11/07/2003 8:35:27 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Heartlander
The Evols don't want to talk about it.
13 posted on 11/07/2003 10:22:11 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Phaedrus; Heartlander; Alamo-Girl
Whether it is by ignorance, defiance or the limits of our language, these Darwin defenders liberally use terms which are not available to them, given their presuppositions. One cannot deny the cake, and then proceed to eat from it!

Yet it's amazing how many try to do just that.

Great article, P! thanks for pinging me to it; and thanks Heartlander, for posting it!

14 posted on 11/07/2003 10:38:42 AM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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To: Heartlander
We then start to have an aesthetic appreciation for the beauty and ingenuity of these life forms, and it is not long before we get around to talking about abstract concepts such as rights, justice, and equality, and assigning some species - namely, us - some kind of moral responsibilities for them, none of which can be measured according to scientific methods.

So much for objectivism.

15 posted on 11/07/2003 11:00:44 AM PST by r9etb
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To: betty boop; Phaedrus
Great catch, Phaedrus! Thanks for the heads up, betty boop!
16 posted on 11/07/2003 11:25:31 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Heartlander
The party music stopped, however, upon arrival of Thornhill and Palmer's The Natural History of Rape, the book that investigated whether rape was a genetically determined trait that enabled humans to climb the evolutionary ladder.

One can go down to the nearest duck pond to observe the role of rape in duck society. Not only will you see female ducks being raped by maverick males, you will also see the female raped again by her own mate -- probably to allow for a fair race between competing sperm.

17 posted on 11/07/2003 11:34:42 AM PST by r9etb
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To: Heartlander
Besides, who could possibly come up with a rhyme for lepidoptera?

Ahem....

Since men cannot be lepidoptera
We must make do with helicoptera
And lacking lovely, powdered wings
We do the job with metal things

(Modest bow to thunderous applause.)

18 posted on 11/07/2003 11:38:51 AM PST by r9etb
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PatrickHenry lurks ...
19 posted on 11/07/2003 1:44:09 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Everything good that I have done, I have done at the command of my voices.)
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To: r9etb
When you get your picture on a stamp, I'll buy it.
20 posted on 11/07/2003 1:51:25 PM PST by js1138
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