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To: jennyp
I will yield to you on that one. Descartes was not a chemist and neither am I, so to say that the combination of hydrogen and oxygen produces a result that can be said to be out of proportion to the seeming properties of each is perhaps a valid objection.

However, consciousness (and even more so, truth and falsity) is a whole different subject. Science cannot account for it - only the appearance or illusion of it, and the effects of it. But our self-aware experience of the 'now' is a mystery (the Jaki passage again, in 290). Scientifically speaking, consciousness does not exist. Science should not be concerned with it, let alone claim that it must have purely a material explanation. That is an incorrect assumption.

Let me ask you this. I want to go further but I don’t want to be accused of putting words in your mouth. Which of the following statements would you say expresses your belief, or is closest to it?
A. If something is not scientifically verifiable, it is not true
B. If something is not scientifically verifiable, it is not chiefly a concern of science
410 posted on 01/16/2004 9:35:41 PM PST by PDerna
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To: PDerna
will yield to you on that one. Descartes was not a chemist and neither am I, so to say that the combination of hydrogen and oxygen produces a result that can be said to be out of proportion to the seeming properties of each is perhaps a valid objection.

Thanks. (But remember, water is just an example of a general concept. I like Dr. Stochastic's example of NAND gates - one of the most simple logic gates, not doing much on their own, but when combined in the right ways can add numbers, subtract, form memories - in fact all computers can be thought of as being built from nothing but NAND gates. But then I'm a computer geek. I must come up with some examples that a non-techie type can relate to! :-)

However, consciousness (and even more so, truth and falsity) is a whole different subject. Science cannot account for it - only the appearance or illusion of it, and the effects of it.

I understand that consciousness is hardly a solved problem scientifically, but "truth and falsity" aren't amenable to science either??? Well, that's something of a quibble. The important point is, I don't see where you've shown that consciousness is in principle impossible to understand.

Science consists of making observations and building theories to explain them, and then making other observations that can decide between one theory & the other. No theory is really backed up by totally comprehensive & precise observations & measurements, strictly speaking. You're really saying that it's - in principle - impossible for scientists to gather enough data & measure phenomena just well enough to be able to ever confidently distinguish, to any degree, between one theory of consciousness and another?

Let me ask you this. I want to go further but I don’t want to be accused of putting words in your mouth. Which of the following statements would you say expresses your belief, or is closest to it? A. If something is not scientifically verifiable, it is not true B. If something is not scientifically verifiable, it is not chiefly a concern of science

B. (Incidentally, most creationists, like Philip Johnson, seem to believe all us methodological naturalists believe in A, but that's not true.) Anyway, it's B. Why do you ask? (she said innocently...)

429 posted on 01/18/2004 1:34:44 AM PST by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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