In Nazi culture, killing jews is fine. I don't live in a Nazi culture- I live in one that has very different rules. When our culture is threatened by a culture like that, we defend ourselves.
You cannot say objectively that murdering jews is objectively wrong, you can only say that murdering jews is disagreeable to you or your culture and you won't stand for it.
Agreed. I find nothing controversial about that statement. I don't believe in an objective standard of right and wrong. That doesn't mean I don't subscribe to a system of right and wrong.
This is the textbook definition of the philosophy of "might makes right." (Stalin believed what you believe.) One problem with your philosophy is that it makes no distinction between power and goodness.
"The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must"- Thucydides.
At the end of the day, unfortunately, force is the final arbiter of who is wrong and who is right (just ask the Nazis- oh, wait, they no longer exist).
and no inalienable rights - no right to liberty, no right to life, right to property - no self-evident rights. The culture dictates your rights -
Agreed, again. The only reason we have the rights we have today is because the Founding Fathers were able to defeat the British and seize those rights. The only rights you have are the ones you are able to hold onto.
the only way to adjudicate differences between cultures is WAR.
That is completely true. Human history is little more than a procession of one culture eliminating another. Since there is no final arbiter of what culture is "right" or "wrong" in a given situation, the only way to settle the question is with force.
each person is a moral agent who can agree or disagree with the culture-at-large and make moral decisions against the cultural norms, so each person is his own culture because each person has a set of morals that may not agree with the politically correct
If you say so, but people who stray too far from society's rules get punished until they modify their behavior. You don't have to believe society's rules, but you do have to follow them.
You are a moral relativist by your own testimony.
Sure, but I believe that my moral system is the correct one. Nobody has been able to convince me otherwise.
Psychologists have a label for people who make up their own moral rules - psychopath.
I think that makes them a sociopath. Anyway, since you've already stated that you don't follow society's rules, doesn't that make you the psychopath?
Indeed, Osama bin Laden was absolutely RIGHT in murdering 3000 people in your system of morality because he had the might to enforce his morality on those people in the twin towers.
If Osama Bin Laden and his ilk were to win and convert the entire world to their way of thinking, they would be RIGHT, since nobody would be around to question them. The trick is to not let that happen.
Not at all. I go by transcendant standards of right and wrong just as our founding fathers did. Right and wrong exist independent of belief, of your belief. Stalin went by your standards. I'm glad to see you owned up to your dangerous philosophy - I just hope no one us dumb enough to put you in charge of anything.
I think that makes them a sociopath.
Let's be clear - it makes YOU a sociopath.
I hope all on this forum read your position on morality so that they can see that dangerous people like you really do exist in the world today. People like you are the arch-enemy of people who love liberty.
Agreed, again. The only reason we have the rights we have today is because the Founding Fathers were able to defeat the British and seize those rights. The only rights you have are the ones you are able to hold onto.
Wrong. The founders ACKNOWLEDGED the existence of inalienable rights - they didn't invent them. They DISCERNED them. Big difference. A difference someone with your mindset cannot possibly comprehend...
Modernman said: If you say so, but people who stray too far from society's rules get punished until they modify their behavior. You don't have to believe society's rules, but you do have to follow them.
Don't you see...individuals make their own moral decisions - cultures don't! Each person decides his or her own beliefs, so it is utterly illogical to say that cultures decide by force. All cultures can do is force someone to SAY that they are toeing the politically correct line, but a culture DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER to make anyone believe ANYTHING. Therefore, your cultural system falls apart under the logic of individual belief. Individuals hold individual moral beliefs and many times such codes are CONTRARY to the culture they live in. You can't explain that in your system without chucking your system. Need examples? Thus, your system is refuted quite easily as it does not account for personal moral belief. No government can dictate to any persons conscience by force. People believe what they want...period.
Where does that sense of ought come from that you have? The culture? Every person is a moral agent who makes moral decisions. You make moral decisions every day (will I or will I not run that red light?) - and the culture has nothing to do with it - you decide.
exmarine said: You are a moral relativist by your own testimony.
Modernman replied: Sure, but I believe that my moral system is the correct one. Nobody has been able to convince me otherwise.
Can't be the correct one. That is making a universal observation about a system of morality that is not universal (it's cultural - remember?) This is a contradictory statement. You cannot say your GROUPTHINK system (your system is nothing more than Orwellian GROUPTHINK) is correct as that implies that it is universally true. In your system, you cannot logically make any universal statements about the nature of morality without self-refutation. You cannot say that cultures decide what is right and wrong as that is also a universal statement.
Furthermore, which culture within our culture is correct? There are many cultures within America - Christian, secular-humanist, feminist, earth worshippers, animal worshippers - which culture is correct within our culture? There is no such thing as a monolithic homogenous moral culture. Isn't it the one YOU agree with? All you can do is make observations if there is no universal moral standard - you cannot make any universal conclusions about morality without contradicting yourself. If we take another country by force, we can impose our legal system, but not our morals - you can't force people to believe anything. You can make the observation that one country defeated another, or you can observe that a certain culture has a certain general belief, but you cannot logically make any conclusions about morality based on force, and you cannot conclude that morality is cultural. The observations do not provide that information. You have made a philosophical leap not based on observable evidence. Personal belief is hidden from cultural scrutiny and cannot be enforced. Actually, logic proves my system and disproves yours, as does human experience, human intuition, and human practice. All of these militate against moral relativism. Moral relativism is indefensible.
Keep talking and I'll keep dismantling your pathetic system.