Two U.S. Soldiers Killed in Iraqi City of Mosul [Throats Cut]

Reuters ^ | Sun November 23, 2003 05:18 AM ET | Reuters Staff

[swarthyguy]

Next you're gonna start seeing the severed heads of soldiers exhibited with pride a la Russians in Chechnya and Indians in Kashmir.

Time for the US to take a page from the Empire and recruit a battalion of Gurkhas.

[FreedomPoster]

Nice kukri. I've been saying for a while that we should raise a regiment of Sikhs, just as the Brits have their Gurkas. The Sikhs know how to deal with unruly Muslims.

[ArrogantBustard]

this brazen cowardly

Excuse me??? You've contradicted youself, here. What's worse, you're underestimating the enemy. Walking up to your armed, military opponent in broad daylight and cutting his throat is certainly brazen, and just as certainly not "cowardly". Fanatical? Yes. Evil? In this case, yes.

Underestimating the enemy will get even more good men killed.

[huck von finn]

Has there been an increase in the death of U.S. troops since November 12th (without including 'others')? That is the date Operation Iron Hammer began.

Also, can you give statistics, and a link to support that claim?

There were 38 U.S. fatalities from Nov. 1 to Nov. 11, and 37 U.S. fatalities from Nov. 12 to Nov. 24 (today). There have been 75 American soldier casualties this month, more than any other month of this war, unfortunately.

So no, there hasn't been much of a change since Nov. 12.

Links and stats:

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/SumDetails.aspx?hndRef=11-2003

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

I'd be standing in front of those Iraqis who were tormented by our mutual enemies, the same enemies who incite hatred among the young in Iraq today.

The Iraqi people are coming forward to help us ~ even knowing the risk after years of torture and loss under Hussein, even with plenty of reasons to doubt our resolve, after losing whole villages to chemical weapons, whole neighborhoods to Saddam's mass execution ~ when we abandoned them before.

They hear the news, follow US politics. Why wouldn't they be afraid of our pulling out before those who murdered their children were removed?

The majority of these people are not on the side of those killing our troops, archy. They just have been beaten down for so many years they need help standing.

Meanwhile, daily, our free (thanks to the troops) press gives our enemies a voice, and hope, while ignoring the sacrifices, character and good work of our troops ~ and ignoring the will of our Iraqi allies.

[happygrl]

Can you flesh out the Phoenix program?

Thanks archy; I was hoping you step up to the plate and post some links.

[The Source]

Thank you, you seem to be one of the last voices of sanity here. Everybody who talks about leveling the city is out of their minds. This is the third largest city in the country. When two tourists from another country get killed in Florida in broad daylight in front of dozens of people, that country doesn't call for the extinction of every person in Miami. What's wrong with you people?

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

I am no saint. They are military or have military loved ones serving and know that each one of our Soldiers is priceless.

They've been through ~ or been associated with ~ ungrateful mobs in Somalia, etc., and if I didn't know that most Iraqis are on our side, I would be responding to the brutal death of our Soldiers the same way.

Only, I would include members of the press who keep promoting our enemies.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

the Germans erased the Czech town of Lidice as retalliation for the assassination or Reichsfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich there.

True. The really interesting thing is that the Germans knew that the townspeople were not responsible for harboring the two soldiers that had attacked Heydrich the Butcher. They just used that as an excuse to level the town.

Those two Czech soldiers probably saved the lives of several million Jews. Heydrich was on the verge of being reassigned to overseeing all of Europe.

[archy]

I'd be standing in front of those Iraqis who were tormented by our mutual enemies, the same enemies who incite hatred among the young in Iraq today.

And good on you for feeling that way. I'd hope you'd have enough sense to grab a couple of kids and get out before the slaughter began, else bith you and they would be lost in the end. And it's not been so long since such retalition was a part of US military policy; in the Phillipines circa 1903 only those under 10 years of age were spared, and there were many who thought that was to benign.

The Iraqi people are coming forward to help us ~ even knowing the risk after years of torture and loss under Hussein, even with plenty of reasons to doubt our resolve, after losing whole villages to chemical weapons, whole neighborhoods to Saddam's mass execution ~ when we abandoned them before.

Some are, in some places. Happily, I am not the one to decide if a town that's an exception to the way you describe it is to be made an example of. Or, if like Hiroshima or Nagasaki, it's time for it to become an object lesson, an example of what the entire country could become. Oderint dum metuant....

They hear the news, follow US politics. Why wouldn't they be afraid of our pulling out before those who murdered their children were removed?

They saw a US Ambassador virtually invite Saddam to invade Kuwait after having helped supply his military for a decade; They saw us turn our backs on the Kurds when he gassed them. And those who know how we abandoned our Vietnamese allies in April 1975 for the most part have no particular reason to expect any better.

That may explain their silence when others in their midst commit acts of butchery on Americans, but it does not excuse it. I hope it does not reach the point where we have to be more frightening that the worst that Saddam could manage; but if it comes to that, I promise you that there are Americans up to that unpleasant task.

The majority of these people are not on the side of those killing our troops, archy. They just have been beaten down for so many years they need help standing.

Just so. And they will not learn to stand on their own overnight, nor in a week, a month or a year. But if they do not learn to be more than drones and cannon fodder for the remainder of Saddam's forces, the whole barrel may have to be emptied to eliminate the rotten apples. After all, if they're incapable of standing up to the Saddamites, they won't offer much resistance to us, either. They'll die like sheep, to be replaced by some sturdier breed.

Meanwhile, daily, our free (thanks to the troops) press gives our enemies a voice, and hope, while ignoring the sacrifices, character and good work of our troops ~ and ignoring the will of our Iraqi allies.

Nothing new there. And a policy of attrition or wholesale retribution is really one that indicates we've lost, that we're incapable of bringing the people of Iraq to the position of standing alongside us as a free people. But if it's to come to that, the usual American response is to handle such tasks from a distance, levelling an area with artillery or aircraft-delivered delights. I just think that if such is to be the case, it's deserving of the personal touch.

-archy-/-

[archy]

They've been through ~ or been associated with ~ ungrateful mobs in Somalia, etc., and if I didn't know that most Iraqis are on our side, I would be responding to the brutal death of our Soldiers the same way.

See following.

-archy-/-

[archy]

They've been through ~ or been associated with ~ ungrateful mobs in Somalia, etc., and if I didn't know that most Iraqis are on our side, I would be responding to the brutal death of our Soldiers the same way.

Only, I would include members of the press who keep promoting our enemies.

Remember those *Peace Activists* in Iraq before we went in? Some of whom we now know were U.S. intelligence agents picking and marking targets; we didn't accidentally hit the Chinese embassy this time.

Others, who didn't know they were helping our side, provided concealment for those worthies. So too are some newsmen providing helpful information under the cover of the less enthusiastic stories that give them the cover they need to do their jobs.

And we're seeing some stories that are offering some pretty good tellings of the better side of our effort in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't expect all the stories to be cheerleading; not all the news is positive or uplifting; and some is downright tragic.

But some of the most infuriating reports are that way for a reason. And it is a good reason.

-archy-/-

[Truth Triumph Always]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/25/international/middleeast/25IRAQ.html?ex=1070731972&ei=1&en=ed01a1824b3b6fa5

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 24 — Confusion swirled Monday as a United States military official retracted his earlier report that the throats of two American soldiers had been slashed during an attack on Sunday in the northern city of Mosul.

The official, who said he was receiving his information from written military records, said that the two soldiers had died of gunshot wounds to the head, and that their bodies had been pulled from their car by Iraqis and robbed of their personal belongings. Contrary to initial accounts on Sunday from Mosul, he said the bodies of the men had not been mutilated or pummeled with rocks.
...
In his revised account, the military official said the victims, both of the 101st Airborne Division, were not set upon by a mob but were shot by unidentified gunmen who stopped their car in front of the Americans' car, forcing it to halt. The assailants got out and fired at the Americans through the windshield.

"Their throats were not slit," the military official said. "The cause of death was gunshot wounds to the head." Iraqis then set upon the vehicle to scavenge what they could, the official said.

The military official said that while an initial military report had said that the men's throats had been slit, further investigation revealed no evidence of such wounds. Nor were the bodies dragged through the streets, the official said.
...
At the Pentagon, Defense Department and military officials had no explanation for the conflicting information from the field, except to repeat the usual caution that first reports are routinely incorrect. The initial reports of throats being slashed came from Iraq, and were never confirmed by officials in Washington, they said.

Military and Pentagon officials confirmed that the bodies were apparently taken from the vehicle, and that valuables and weapons were stolen, but that the victims were not mutilated or dragged through the streets.
...
Equally mysterious were the origins of the report about the throat-slitting. The military official said he could offer no explanation.

---

People, realize it, you are being played with.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Remember those *Peace Activists* in Iraq before we went in? Some of whom we now know were U.S. intelligence agents picking and marking targets; we didn't accidentally hit the Chinese embassy this time.

I didn't know.

So too are some newsmen providing helpful information under the cover of the less enthusiastic stories that give them the cover they need to do their jobs.

I hadn't considered this. Will try to keep it in mind.

How to excuse the other 99.--% of the press corps?

And we're seeing some stories that are offering some pretty good tellings of the better side of our effort in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't expect all the stories to be cheerleading; not all the news is positive or uplifting; and some is downright tragic.

Tragic and truthful, respectful ~ is a tribute. Rare from the press.

I am not able to forgive the American mainstream free press right now for what they did to our troops from March through June.

[archy]

So too are some newsmen providing helpful information under the cover of the less enthusiastic stories that give them the cover they need to do their jobs.

I hadn't considered this. Will try to keep it in mind.

How to excuse the other 99.--% of the press corps?

No excuse necessary or deserved, just remember that there are probably a couple of individuals who don't quite deserve being lumped in and tarred with the same brush, even though much of their outout is indistinguishable.

And enjoy and savor the irony, like a cold scoop of ice cream with a hot sundae: even though some of the press is urgently trying to bury their little brown noses where they feel most at home, in doing so they're unwittingly giving cover to a wolf among them, wearing the same sheep suit they do, but with some sharp fangs indeed. THere's a better than even chance that if Saddam is temopted to come out of hiding and can then be targeted, it'll be one such who quietly gets the job done. That's particularly sweet....

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Ty. I have to be careful daily not to get distracted by the press, and to choose not to go to war against them rather than focus on the troops.

Your advice helps. Still, glad I won't be crossing paths w/ Peter Jennings.