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To: lanice8

-- I do not agree that everything that happened during the Crusades was commendable.

I didn't say that it was. I believe lots of nasty things were done by both sides.

-- But not every Crusader was of the same ilk, and not all of them did valiant deeds.

Of course not, many were poorly educated and little more than barbarians. Some of them actually were barbarians. And the same was true of the Saracen hordes. Those were barbaric times, full of barbaric deeds. But, for the most part, what we would not do today was commonplace in those times and would not cause an eyebrow to be raised.

-- but I believe that it takes strength of character to acknowledge that some things did go wrong- terribly wrong- and that they should be acnowledged and dealt with.

Nothing 'went wrong' by the standards of that time, not in the way you mean it. Terrible atrocities were routinely committed by both sides as was the norm in that era. The concepts that shape Western Civilization had yet to be invented. You are applying today's standards to yesterday and that is unfair. It diminishes all the progress made by humanity in the intervening time. It is demeaning.

Furthermore, it is presumptious to apologize on behalf of people whose motives you do not understand.

The worst of it all is that your apology only sends a perception of weakness to people who are the exact same barbarians as they were when your barbarian predecessors were fighting their barbarian predecessors. And as a result innocent people who don't give a democrat's ass about your post-Christian guilt will die horrible deaths.

-- Does Islamic civilization ...

Islamic civilization collapsed long ago. The Islamic world of today would have little culture or technology if it weren't able to import it wholesale from the West in exchange for oil. They'd still be chopping each other up in order to steal each other's women and goats. Their biggest contribution to modern civilization was literally nothing, and even that they stole from ancient India.

And they have nothing to apologize for prior to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War One. Since then, however, they have a great deal to answer for.


24 posted on 09/08/2004 6:44:34 PM PDT by calenel (The Democratic Party is the Socialist Mafia. It is a Criminal Enterprise.)
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To: calenel

Well, I can see that we are probably not going to agree on this issue. The standards that I apply are standards based upon my belief system. Certainly, Western civilization has changed since the Middle Ages, but Christian principles haven't. To crowd Jews into a synagogue and burn it down because they chose not to convert to Christianity is wrong. To slaughter Orthodox Christians because their form of worship was different (and not to a great degree), is wrong. To rape Islamic women and justify it by stating that they are infidels is wrong. It doesn't matter whether or not it was common practice. The standards of their belief system (Christianity) clearly spell out that this type of behavior is wrong, regardless of the justness of your cause. And THIS is what people "remember" when we begin to talk to them about what we believe. If Christianity is so good and virtuous, then how could people have done these things in the name of Jesus Christ, on a Crusade for Him? Well, according to the teachings of Christianity, they shouldn't have! Unfortunately, but not suprisingly, Islam allows for terrible deeds to be done in the name of religion. I still believe that those deeds are terrible and wrong. But, their belief system does not tell them not to do such things. Mines does, and so did the Crusaders'.

Fighting a war, liberating the Holy land, even killing the enemy, these things are not necessarily wrong, although they are unpleasant. They are quite noble when done for the right reasons, and carried out in the right ways. Now of course, ugly things happen during war, and not all of it is justified. Even some things done under orders are morally wrong. I find it suprising that in a group where conservative principles are valued, the belief that moral wrong IS wrong regardless of the generation or common practices of a people should be a novel concept.

Also, I don't think that you're hearing everything that I have to say. The apology was not directed solely at Muslims. It was geared equally toward Jews and Eastern Orthodox Christians. Unfortunately, the press did not emphasize this as much. But I worked with the walk both in Turkey and Israel, and was able to share it with people of all three faiths. Contrary to your belief, I do not believe that it encouraged jihad (which was already in full swing by the time the Walk began. And I know this, because I was in the thick of it going to grad school in Israel at the time). I think that those who were going to respond to it did, and those who were bent on jihad were already inclined toward extremism, and our efforts made no impression on them except maybe to maintain an already seething disdain for anything Western. In short, I don't believe that the bad got worse, or that they were emboldened by our statement. The kinds of things that encourages radical Islam are, for example, when countries back out (ie Spain) out of fear of terrorist reprisal, or cowtow and change their laws in order to avoid terrorist threats (as the terrorists are trying to force in France). Another example is when the Israelis pulled out of Southern Lebanon in 2000, their enemy then getting the impression that they had worn down their resistance. This is the kind of thing that emboldens Islam. Simply sharing a truth of Christianity does not. Humility doesn't imply weakness, and those who perceived the apology as weakness already held that view of the West. But I know for sure that there were countless others who were sincerely moved, some to tears, and who even then began to understand something of the spirit of Christianity, once they were able to remove what they had alway understood it to be as a result of what they'd learned of the Crusades.

Also, I know that Islamic civ collapsed years ago. I believe that I may have been using the term simply to refer to the Islamic world, which though fragmented, still has a unified ethos worldwide. During the period of Islamic civilization, however, there were many great inventions and discoveries and great centers of learning which developed. The Islamic world actually did contribute to the continuing development of the Western world. They just got stuck in the Middle Ages, and are still unwilling to leave it. They're still looking back to the days of their "golden age". While I disagree wholesale with the religion, the radicalism it spawns, and the worldwide manipulation that has developed as a result of it, I will not deny them their heritage. Islamic civilization has a very rich history, and the information that it was able to transmit to the west (even knowledge gained from farther east) was of great benefit. And, we often received it once it had been synthesized through an Islamiic filter. Scholasticism and the concept of merging faith and reason were blatantly Islamic, learned by Western medieval thinkers in Islanic universities like those of Cordoba.


25 posted on 09/10/2004 9:17:38 AM PDT by lanice
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To: calenel; lanice; lanice8
Islamic civilization collapsed long ago. The Islamic world of today would have little culture or technology if it weren't able to import it wholesale from the West in exchange for oil. They'd still be chopping each other up in order to steal each other's women and goats. Their biggest contribution to modern civilization was literally nothing, and even that they stole from ancient India.

TRue -- what is called "islammic civilisation" was nothign more than Greek, Persian, Egyptian and Indian civilisational aspects robbed by the slammie nutjobs
38 posted on 09/11/2004 5:53:42 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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