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"When homosexuals take over a parish" (a story from North Carolina)
Virtuosityonline.org ^ | 25 Nov. 2003 | Willard Fishburne

Posted on 11/26/2003 12:39:19 PM PST by churchillbuff

When Homosexuals Take Over A Church

By Willard Fishburne

ASHEVILLE, NC--Five years ago I took my family out of one local church and began a search for a new church home. The experience was difficult. This is the story of that time in my life. I want to tell you why we left, what we lost, and what we found.

First of all, I want you to know we were involved at this church, not just attendees. I had been on the Vestry and had been Junior Warden. I had been the church Treasurer, and at the time of our departure I was chairman of the finance committee. My wife had been a preschool and Sunday School teacher, and both of our children, ages seven and nine, were members of the children's choir.

My wife and I had been married in an Episcopal diocese in Chicago. The priest there taught us to be Episcopalians. We attended the inquirer's class. We learned the tradition and history of the church. It was there that we first learned of the Episcopal faith's three-legged stool of the Bible, Tradition and Reason. We read the Book of Common Prayer's marriage vows, and we shared the hope of children. We read The Nicene Creed, which stated exactly what our new denomination believed. We agreed with its fundamental belief that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God; and that he suffered and was crucified on the cross for our sins; and that he rose again on the third day. And that by believing in him we might have eternal life.

In short, our experience at the church of the Redeemer on Fullerton St. in Chicago was so good that we sought the same type of church in Asheville.

We joined an Episcopal church where the priest was proud of his reputation as an avant guard liberal priest. He had come to the church in 1957 and had assumed a ministry based on personal devotion to his members, and an overt social liberalism that eschewed such common symbols as the American flag and N.C. State flags in the church

By the mid-eighties we were a family of four. The little church was our home and we were comfortable as the only living conservatives in a sea of liberals. And it was OK. We had our differences, but we worked together in God's sight to serve and glorify His name.

About that same time, one of the ladies of the church began a self- designated ministry to the prisoners in the Buncombe County Jail, and Craggy prison. She delivered personal care kits with toothpaste and soap, and, I suppose, counseled the prisoners.

Also in the mind-eighties, I was asked to run for the Vestry, and was elected to the post, just as she asked for the priest's permission to become a deacon. In the Episcopal church, this is one step below the priesthood. She could perform every priestly function except administering the sacraments of bread and wine. To gain this position her ministry had to be approved by the church vestry.

We gave the approval, provided she would agree to expand the ministry to the victims of crime, not just the perpetrators. A year later she came back to the vestry and the priest, asking that her ministry be changed and expanded again, this time to include the victims of HIV and AIDS infections. Again, we agreed.

What followed next was a series of half-inch steps until the church was thoroughly dominated and intimidated by the homosexual community. A constant flight of traditional long-time members ensued. One never knew where they went, but they were some of Asheville's most prominent families. Some of the half-inch steps that drove them away included:

First, a support group for persons with HIV and AIDS was established. The group met in the church library, or one of the other meeting rooms. No problem. Alcoholics Anonymous and other groups already used church facilities for their meetings. One more group seemed to make little if any difference.

Second, special services were requested for the HIV/AIDS community. The vestry denied these services, in that there was no desire to establish a homosexual-oriented church within the church. Thus, we welcomed increasing numbers of homosexuals to regular church services. This transpired over a period of months and years, and many of the new people who joined the church were welcome. The were bright, they were polite and considerate of others, but, by and large, they kept to themselves, sat together and avoided Sunday School classes and such Bible study as the church had. Many, it should be noted, gravitated towards the church choir. By the end of 1990 the influx of these individuals had made an impact. Many of the straight men left the choir and a noticeable group of homosexuals attended services each Sunday morning.

The deacon's prison ministry had fallen by the wayside, and various homosexual groups met at the church several times each month. The deacon spent her full time working with these groups, and had little time or interest in working with others.

The mainstream congregation seemed unaware of the change. The growing numbers of smiling and polite young men without wives or girlfriends seemed not to be noticed. Yet a gradual change had taken over the church. Homilies, or sermons, delivered from the pulpit now dwelt exclusively with social issues. One layman took to the pulpit one Sunday morning to lecture on the benefits of Liberation Theology to the huddled masses of Latin America. I nearly gagged. I had spent two years in Central America in the U.S. Army's Special Forces, training indigenous personnel in village defenses, human rights and patrolling.

We went with them on patrols to fight the communist insurgencies spawned by Satan's own liberation theology. Many good men, women and children died in that undeclared war and I suffer the mental and physical scars today. Fools can rant and rave all they wish from the sanctuary oft heir liberal pulpits, but when the night fell in Guatemala in the 1969, I was on the ground with a rifle and a poncho praying for dawn. So on that morning when the church rafters rang with that heresy, I felt sick. I wondered how long I would be able to stay.

By 1990 my term on the vestry had expired. The church was torn apart by the undercurrent of conflict between the straight congregation, the ones raising children and their grandparents, on the one side, and the extreme social liberals and homosexuals on the other. Many of the latter group had AIDS, and one of the fears was that it would be transmitted by the common Communion cup. This fear was addressed in two ways. First, a second, small in-tincture cup was provided for those who wished to dip their wafers rather than drink from the cup. Second, there was a lecture on how HIV and AIDS were transmitted, with assurance that the Communion cup was safe. The tone of the meeting was that everything was fine, there was no chance of any accidental contact spreading the HIV virus, and we were ignorant if we thought otherwise.

At the same time, two of the most liberal women in the church were dispatched to a conference on "Human Sexuality." This, as it turned out, was a code phrase for a seminar on the acceptance of homosexuality as just a normal part of human life. Live with it, in other words, it's normal and it isn't a sin. People are just born that way, and if you think otherwise you are just being "judgmental."

Within a few months, things went from resigned acceptance of a forced equality between homosexuals and heterosexuals, to an overt preference for the homosexual community Here is what happened.

The Southern Appalachian Lesbian and Gay Alliance, otherwise known as SALGA, wanted to put on a gay fashion show. This was a cross-dressing event. A drag queen show. The church deacon quietly made arrangements and it was held in the church parish hall. That was the first time in nearly 100 years that the church had been used for a fashion show of any type. That it was a homosexual cross-dressed fashion show made it even more outrageous to the church's straight population. Worse yet, one of the church's youth groups (EYC) was on the premises at the time, attempting to use the kitchen facilities, which were also in use by the cross-dressed homosexuals. These young people were thus exposed to one of the more outrageous examples of homosexual behavior, without guidance or preparation for what they saw.

The priest received a barrage of objections from the straight membership. People continued to leave. This church experience was not what they expected, and this church's family was like no family they had ever encountered. It seemed clear that the liberal priest and the ultra-liberal deacon had gone too far. But nothing was done. The private conversations between concerned straights vanished whenever the priest or deacon came by. The Human Sexuality committee, otherwise known as the get-along, go-along gang, was everywhere. On the Outreach committee. Teaching Sunday School. In the Altar Guild, and certainly in the choir. These people, acting either on their own or as duplicitous tools of the priest, stifled protests of the homosexual influx with lectures on the need to show loving and tender acceptance of "alternative lifestyles."

A few months later, they went ever further. In February, SALGA and the deacon conspired to put on a homosexual St. Valentine's Day dance. Again, the 100-year old Parish Hall was the site of the event.

The entire affair was done in secret. The fact that the parish hall was reserved for a SALGA St. Valentine's Day Dance never appeared on the church calendar, and was never announced during the scheduled announcement time on Sunday morning. It was a closed event. The planning, however, was intensive. In January, the deacon presented the office manager with a beer and wine sales permit application. "Sign it," she said, "so we can sell beer and wine at the dance."

The office manager, a Baptist, refused. The priest, for a change, supported the no alcoholic beverage sale position. After all, it would be the first time the church had obtained a permit to sell alcoholic beverages during a church event. To an Episcopalian, a little wine and cheese at a reception was one thing. Selling the stuff was entirely something else.

Undeterred, the deacon and her friends from SALGA determined they would have beer and wine at their dance anyway. Rather than sell it directly, they prepared signs that advertised the beer and wind would be available in exchange for "love" offerings equal to the predetermined sale price.

And thus it was that, without the congregation's knowledge or approval, SALGA held a dance to celebrate St. Valentine's Day in the Parish Hall of an Episcopal church. Beer and wine were readily available if you made a "love" offering. From all reports and signs, the event was a huge success. A gay old time, as they say, was had by one and all.

The next morning, Sunday, I arrived early to find the church sexton and Junior Warden hard at work cleaning up. I helped them finish the job - of removing beer cans and other evidence of the previous night's homosexual extravaganza from the premises. It was clear to me that the celebrants had not been celibate throughout the evening. The place was a mess.

That nearly was the last straw, for me. The Parish Hall was not used for dances for our teenagers or our adults, because the priest had said he was afraid of "damage to the floor" in the historic building. As far as anyone can remember, that had been a hard and fast rule during his 30-year tenure. No dances in the Parish Hall. Not even a mixer for our kids.

But the rule was broken in favor of the homosexuals. And a fashion show was held for the homosexuals. And beer and wine were, in effect, sold for the homosexuals. Everything clearly indicated that this church now preferred homosexual members to straights. The evidence was in the actions the church took. The general membership was kept in the dark, and the church bulletin - or newsletter - often seemed to mention the good things being done by the deacon and her gay friends.

A few months later, with the problems just below the boiling point, the priest and the get-along, go-along committee announced there would be a Wednesday night meeting to discuss the problem. I now refer to it as the "Wednesday Night Massacre."

When I walked into the Parish Hall that evening, I found out just how far the priest and deacon were willing to go to push their agenda. First, there were more homosexuals present than straights. And most of the homosexuals in attendance were neither members nor regular attendees at our church. Second, to speak at the event you had to have signed up in advance. Only one straight was on the program, with a total of about seven folks speaking for the homosexual community.

The program started with a young lady from SALGA stating the she had personally cleaned up all the mess after the dance. I said she had not, that there was a great deal of litter on the grounds. She told me that was a lie, that everything had been cleaned up. I look at the Junior Warden, who had called me to help clean up on that Sunday morning. He grimly lowered and shook his head. He and the priest had been very close for years. In times of birth, marriage, and death. Thirty years in one church, together. The Junior Warden would not press the issue.

After opening remarks from the head of the get-along committee, we split into small groups. Each group had at least one homosexual in the room to guide and lead the discussion. In my group we were hosted by a defrocked Catholic priest, who had declared himself a practicing homosexual some years earlier. His seminary training and familiarity with all Biblical references to homosexuality totally dominated and intimidated our discussion. After 40 minutes of this oppressive environment, in which little constructive was accomplished other than the attempt to brainwash the straights, we returned too the Parish Hall. It had been much the same in the other breakout groups. The deck was stacked and no one had been dealt a straight hand.

One person, a member of the church who also was an ordained Presbyterian minister and psychologist with an active family counseling ministry, was on the schedule to speak for the straight community. His remarks were on one sheet of paper, and would take about four minutes to read. After 30 seconds, the priest cut him off.

"David, that's enough of that," he said. "We've heard all we need to hear. Sit down."

And thus ended the great debate. Free speech had been stifled. The forces of darkness had taken control of the church. Half an inch at a time.

I stayed a few weeks longer, writing a lengthy and impassioned letter to the Bishop and calling each member of the vestry to see what could be done. The answer was nothing. The bishop wrote me a very nice letter that said, "Even if I was of a mind to remove the priest, which I'm not, I couldn't. Only the church vestry can remove an Episcopal priest."

The vestry was dominated by the priest's faithful servants. The head of the get-along, go-along committee was on the vestry. The faithful Junior Warden, of course, as well as the Senior Warden. Twelve people, at least eight of whom were the priest's dedicated servants.

We lost. And we left. We moved to a more rural parish where we felt we could believe in the Bible without fear of criticism from our ministers. The liberal wing of the Episcopal Church, and the church we left in particular, is too liberal for us. I was very concerned that the sight of men holding hands in church, and sitting throughout Sunday morning services with their arms around one another, was a bad example. I was afraid that my young and impressionable children were witness to events that would destroy the very values and morality Christianity attempted to teach.

The year after our departure the deacon proposed the church open a gay and lesbian support group for middle school children. Notice of this plan was printed in the church's annual report.

The time period I have described covers about six years. Six years in the life of a church, and many tragedies in the lives of young homosexual men who died of AIDS, when they came the church in search of God and, found, instead, encouragement for the lifestyle that would lead to their death. (Italicized section added 6/2000). Later, in 1995, at the Diocesan Convention at Camp Kanuga, the deacon defied instruction from the bishop and the priest, and declared on the floor of the assembly that she was a lesbian. Why did the Bishop and the parish priest instruct the Deacon not to publicly reveal her homosexuality? Because she would then have to be suspended. The Bishop followed through with a six week suspension. She then resumed her position and continues to lead and preach the gospel of homosexuality in the church today.

In other words, the Bishop objected to her coming out of the closet. I believe he knew that she would be more effective if she remained cloaked. But he restored her to her office just as soon as the public furor died down. About six months later, the Deacon's husband, head of Christian Education at this church, announced that he, too was homosexual. As was their adopted son. I guess that disproves heredity as a cause.

And more recently the new priest, Todd Donatelli, another avante guard liberal, announced the church, now the Cathedral of All Souls, would offer the Church's blessing and an appropriate ceremony for homosexual unions. Postscript:

The new All Souls rector, Todd Donatelli, last year issued the first Excommunication in the history of the Episcopal Church in the United States. This "honor" was afforded to one Lewis W. Green for the offense of disagreeing with the church's homosexual agenda. Mr. Green, to his eternal credit, absolutely refused to get along and go along with the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle as equal to heterosexuality, and actually preferable in some cases. An appeal to our Bishop, Robert Johnson of the Diocese of Western North Carolina, fell upon deaf ears. The Bishop also supports Donatelli in his decision to bless homosexual unions.

Speaking of children, at Calvary our adults have a Sunday School class led by a wonderful retired priest. His table is overflowing with good things to share with us, teaching us ever more about our Savior, and God's plan for the world. And we have another retired old-school priest who sings in the choir and is a font of good and humorous knowledge about all things spiritual.

I am on the vestry and my wife taught Sunday School until this year when she decided the task required someone younger. The only mistake we see there thus far at Calvary is that they have allowed me to join the choir. Maybe the angels will sneak in and give me the ability to carry a tune. That certainly wasn't in God's plan, but until the Angels intercede I shall persevere in making my Joyful Noise.

By the Grace of God, the odyssey on which I took my family in 1991 ended at Calvary Episcopal Church in Fletcher. It was a very long and difficult journey, but I would do it again. And if Satan ever takes over the pulpit at Calvary, as he did at All Souls, we'll be on our way out the door.

And even though, at this time, we are not ready to lead our parish to the AMiA, it is a blessing that we now have an alternative.


TOPICS: Editorial; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: christianity; ecusa; homosexualagenda; homosexuality
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1 posted on 11/26/2003 12:39:19 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
It was there that we first learned of the Episcopal faith's three-legged stool of the Bible, Tradition and Reason.

That's two legs too many, and the root of the problem.

2 posted on 11/26/2003 12:48:56 PM PST by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: churchillbuff
Thanks for posting.
3 posted on 11/26/2003 12:52:35 PM PST by DeweyCA
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To: churchillbuff
After opening remarks from the head of the get-along committee, we split into small groups. Each group had at least one homosexual in the room to guide and lead the discussion. In my group we were hosted by a defrocked Catholic priest, who had declared himself a practicing homosexual some years earlier. His seminary training and familiarity with all Biblical references to homosexuality totally dominated and intimidated our discussion. After 40 minutes of this oppressive environment, in which little constructive was accomplished other than the attempt to brainwash the straights, we returned too the Parish Hall. It had been much the same in the other breakout groups. The deck was stacked and no one had been dealt a straight hand.

Looks like the author found out about the Delphi strategy - a classic maneuver to isolate and intimidate.

On another note, homosexuals need to hear the Gospel of Christ as much as anyone. There is a vocal segment of the church that resorts to name-calling, and another segment that would accomodate homosexual behavior. I honestly don't think Jesus would do either.

4 posted on 11/26/2003 12:57:00 PM PST by Fudd
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To: churchillbuff
We joined an Episcopal church where the priest was proud of his reputation as an avant guard liberal priest. He had come to the church in 1957 and had assumed a ministry based on personal devotion to his members, and an overt social liberalism that eschewed such common symbols as the American flag and N.C. State flags in the church

That was the big mistake. Why would anyone, claiming to be a conservative, willingly walk into such a ticking time bomb?

5 posted on 11/26/2003 12:58:13 PM PST by Paul Atreides (Is it really so difficult to post the entire article?)
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To: churchillbuff
We had a very similar experience of the quiet infiltration of a liberal, homosexual agenda in our former Christian school. We left fairly early on in the process when, as a friend descibed, the hand of God was removed from the school.
6 posted on 11/26/2003 12:59:29 PM PST by hilaryrhymeswithrich (Al Franken is a pimple on the butt of liberalism)
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To: All
JESUS DEFINES MARRIAGE: "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore, they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." -from THE BIBLE: Matthew 19:4-6
International Healing Foundation

CLICK HERE


7 posted on 11/26/2003 12:59:32 PM PST by Cindy
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To: churchillbuff
Homosexuality = Sin! The open practice of sin never belongs in the church!Whatever happened to repentance?
8 posted on 11/26/2003 1:00:10 PM PST by Doctor Don
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To: churchillbuff
Good God Almighty! What took you so long to leave???
9 posted on 11/26/2003 1:00:46 PM PST by chadwimc
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To: churchillbuff
Hopefully, conservatives will vote with thieir pocketbooks against this disgusting group. And don't give me any of that "homophobe" stuff. That suggests fear; I am just grossed out by them.

It's getting easier and easier to discern the wheat from the tares IMHO.

SM
10 posted on 11/26/2003 1:02:02 PM PST by Senormechanico ("Face piles of trials with smiles...it riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.)
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To: churchillbuff
"By the Grace of God, the odyssey on which I took my family in 1991 ended at Calvary Episcopal Church in Fletcher. It was a very long and difficult journey, but I would do it again. And if Satan ever takes over the pulpit at Calvary, as he did at All Souls, we'll be on our way out the door. "

Why? Why not stand and fight? He was willing to fight for others rights in central America, but he can't stand up for his church here? The first church I can understand maybe, but now that he knows the signs of the "inch at a time" takeover why not be vigilant and nip it in the bud? Why not inform fellow church members what happened before and to be vigilant also?

11 posted on 11/26/2003 1:03:14 PM PST by Klickitat
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To: churchillbuff
Once there became an organized gay membership, it was over.

"Tolerance" means shut up and take it while we infiltrate, subvert, and assume control of your Church and its assets.

This Church bought the tolerance/diversity bit in the 80's and it was dowhill from there. Without help from Church insiders (traitors), it wouldn't be possible. The left always advances its agenda incrementally. Leftists groups seek conquest, not acceptance and inclusion. Once they get control, they become tyrannical.

This is a perfect example of what has been happening to all of our institutions for years.

Even on FR, there is a group of Marxist thinkers that appear repeatedly on certain threads and push this agenda, using appeals to morals and ethics. These people never express a concern when institutions are destroyed and members are forced out.

The lesson here is that we have to stop buying into their tactics and arguments, rejecting their ideology out of hand. Unfortunately, the masses have been conditioned to accept the abuse of these groups, apologize for needing it, and welcome more of it.
12 posted on 11/26/2003 1:03:30 PM PST by At _War_With_Liberals
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To: churchillbuff
Asheville? What a surprise.
13 posted on 11/26/2003 1:07:25 PM PST by who knows what evil? (Under the personal care of the Great Physician...full coverage.)
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To: churchillbuff
The forces of darkness had taken control of the church. Half an inch at a time.

Just like socialism (fascist and communist variety) wherever it's filthy tentacles reach. Thank you American Soldier for fighting for freedom.

BTW, although I personally am not a member of any faith (not yet anyhow) I like your three stools, especially the Reason part which is a wise balance to the other two stools.

G-d Bless America and Her Soldiers.

14 posted on 11/26/2003 1:10:47 PM PST by americanSoul (Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees. Live Free or Die. I should be in New Hampshire.)
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To: churchillbuff
What a disturbing story. We all must be vigilant against this cancer, no matter the denomination of our church.
15 posted on 11/26/2003 1:17:00 PM PST by mountaineer
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To: churchillbuff
The were bright, they were polite and considerate of others, but, by and large, they kept to themselves, together and avoided Sunday School classes and such Bible study as the church had.

I guess that this is where the line was crossed. They were not interested in studying the God's Word and following it. Too bad, they could have repented.

16 posted on 11/26/2003 1:17:25 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: Senormechanico
Q. Why are Episcopalians such poor chess players?

A. They can't tell a bishop from a queen.
17 posted on 11/26/2003 1:20:33 PM PST by wordsofearnest (He'll rip your lungs out Jim, I'd like to meet his tailor.)
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To: churchillbuff
Some homosexuals were apparently going to try a similar takeover of an Orthodox Church in Russia. The story played out a little differently.

Few would fault the clarity of the Orthodox response to the September marriage of Denis Gogolyev and Mikhail Morozev in the Mother of God Chapel in Nizhny Novgorod, Russia.

The bishops defrocked the priest, bulldozed the church and burned the wreckage.

The Russians have a talent, at times, for making a clear statement.

18 posted on 11/26/2003 1:21:39 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: mountaineer
Amen. "Go along to get along" is a lie from the pit of hell and it smells like smoke.
19 posted on 11/26/2003 1:22:35 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: churchillbuff
The priest received a barrage of objections from the straight membership. People continued to leave. This church experience was not what they expected, and this church's family was like no family they had ever encountered. It seemed clear that the liberal priest and the ultra-liberal deacon had gone too far. But nothing was done. The private conversations between concerned straights vanished whenever the priest or deacon came by. The Human Sexuality committee, otherwise known as the get-along, go-along gang, was everywhere. On the Outreach committee. Teaching Sunday School. In the Altar Guild, and certainly in the choir. These people, acting either on their own or as duplicitous tools of the priest, stifled protests of the homosexual influx with lectures on the need to show loving and tender acceptance of "alternative lifestyles."

Homosexual revolution is only one of number of steps. Next ones will follow. I recommend C. S. Lewis That Hideous Strength to everyone.

20 posted on 11/26/2003 1:24:51 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: churchillbuff
On the up side... at least the church would have an interior makeover. Some fabulous new materials and colors on the benches, some tasteful antiques and maybe a hot tub.
21 posted on 11/26/2003 1:26:54 PM PST by Blue Screen of Death (,/i)
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To: ahadams2
Posted a week ago ping.
22 posted on 11/26/2003 1:28:42 PM PST by Eala (Traditional Anglican resource page: ---> http://eala.freeservers.com/anglican <----)
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To: churchillbuff
It was clear to me that the celebrants had not been celibate throughout the evening. The place was a mess.

Ugh.

23 posted on 11/26/2003 1:36:13 PM PST by SquirrelKing (If I don't have another beer, then the terrorists win)
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To: churchillbuff
Wow. Powerful story. I think I would have been much less long-suffering. I predict that congregation will self-destruct within a generation, and Calvary will thrive.
24 posted on 11/26/2003 1:36:52 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: TPartyType
I predict that congregation will self-destruct within a generation

When these kinds of infiltrations happen at a parish that has a strong endowment (from generations of wealthy parishioners or faithful tithers), it doesn't matter if the infiltrators drive people away, because the church can continue by living off the endowment.

25 posted on 11/26/2003 1:41:32 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
The priest at the first church has a lot to answer for.

In I Timothy 4:1,2 we read:

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron."(NIV)

This trend will continue, not only in churches, but in the public square. All those who stand in the way of homosexuality will be branded as intolerant, accused of hate speech, and then persecuted to the full extent of the law.

All for speaking God's Word in love.

It's already happening in Canada. Will it happen here?



26 posted on 11/26/2003 1:42:10 PM PST by exit82 (Sound off to your elected reps in DC: Capitol switchboard toll free number 1-800-648-3516.)
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To: Fudd
Except that too many of the homosexuals simply refuse to change their lives in any way whatsoever. Like the article said, the sermons went from biblical teachings to social issues.
27 posted on 11/26/2003 1:45:46 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: churchillbuff
All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.

This should be a lesson to all of us that this sort of thing should be shouted down from the start instead of being allowed to take over like a creeping vine.

28 posted on 11/26/2003 1:54:00 PM PST by Reagan is King
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To: who knows what evil?
"Asheville? What a surprise."

Uh...been to Asheville lately???

29 posted on 11/26/2003 1:57:50 PM PST by Savage Beast (If Europeans cannot remember the price of appeasement, Americans are well qualified to remind them.)
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To: Fudd; All
titled "Have You Been Delphi-ed?".

THE DELPHI TECHNIQUE

30 posted on 11/26/2003 2:10:22 PM PST by backhoe (Just an old Keybored Cowboy, riding the TrackBall into the Sunset...)
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To: Klickitat
My response would be that staying and fighting only applies to a certain degree. Once the church leadership decides to tolerate open, unrepentant sinful behavior from it's members and will not change or cannot be removed, there is nothing left to fight for, as it is no longer a hose of God.

The first sigh of homosexual acceptance that maintains the leaderships approval would be the last for me.

These things rarely happen all of a sudden without other events preceding them, though. And It's likely that I would have left before it got close to that point.

The proudly "progressive" liberal priest would be the first clue. One cannot be liberal and have any moral integrity worth spit, in my view.

Liberalism and morality are mutually exclusive.

31 posted on 11/26/2003 2:11:06 PM PST by Jotmo ("Voon", said the mattress.)
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To: Fudd
I think maybe that's the problem. They hear it, but they aren't listening to it.

Shocking to read the account. Our church, a Lutheran one, is meeting on this soon, and it looks like I'm going to have to attend those meetings.

Our pastor is about as far to the left as it can get, which is worrisome. So far, with some highlighted exceptions, he has been true to doctrine.

I see that changing.
32 posted on 11/26/2003 2:12:55 PM PST by RinaseaofDs
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To: Jotmo
hose=house
33 posted on 11/26/2003 2:13:30 PM PST by Jotmo ("Voon", said the mattress.)
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To: churchillbuff
A well written story that sent chills down my spine. Leaving a church is difficult and I could feel his pain. Walk with God Willard Fishburne.
34 posted on 11/26/2003 2:14:37 PM PST by Wheee The People (Krispy Kreme "R" me!)
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To: Savage Beast
Uh...been to Asheville lately???

Sorry...I guess my statement wasn't dripping with as much sarcasm as I thought. (My wife likes to shop in Asheville, and the sales tax is LOWER than the neighboring state, so we get over there quite a bit. It's a freak show, no doubt.)

35 posted on 11/26/2003 2:19:36 PM PST by who knows what evil? (Under the personal care of the Great Physician...full coverage.)
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To: churchillbuff
Unfortunately, the Church I used to belong to took a similar path. The homosexuals depend on stealth to infiltrate a church (and probably any other organization). When a few start coming out, the closeted ones band together with them to condemn anyone who won't accept gays as NON-Christians. Up is down, white is black. Then more and more gays join, turning the Church into a "dating" place. A handy place to meet others for sexual purposes. Then the long term members start leaving.

I have heard that the preacher that was hired shortly after I left (who was also gay) committed the Church to buying a huge property and sell what they had, and then left completely. When he broke up with his "significant other", he just could not continue. The gays in the congregation left soon afterward. The Church is in financial difficulties now. There weren't before. I am not sure who is left there, but I won't go back.
36 posted on 11/26/2003 2:20:37 PM PST by jim_trent
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To: churchillbuff
When I was growing up, the churches in town--and the synagogues too--had widely different personalities and subcultures. One Episcopal church catered to homosexuals. There seemed to be homosexual priests, deacons, choir members, etc., though whether or not they were active or promiscuous I never knew. I went to a different Episcopal church, and, not being homosexual, had little knowledge of this.

The homosexuality was not flaunted. It was dignified. There was no objection to it in the community. In fact, it was a part of the community that seemed to fit in about as well as anything else. I hate to use this word, but, though I didn't realized it growing up, the wide diversity of the city was fun and interesting. It occurred naturally and without design. The city was merely a diverse place in which open-mindedness was taken for granted. I still don't know whether this was a matter of tolerance or apathy, but I do know that it was a city of beautiful sophistication, in the loveliest meaning of the world.

However, if the above tale is accurate, I would have left the church when the fashion show occurred and gone somewhere else.

My wife and I are quite liberal (which has nothing to do with "Liberals" and "Liberalism", which have nothing to do with liberalism). We have homosexual friends. We have visited in the homes of lesbians and male homosexuals, and they have visited us in our home.

However, the kind to foolishness described in this article is ridiculous. It is inconsiderate, oppressive, tasteless, and absurd, and such behavior breeds intolerance.

37 posted on 11/26/2003 2:21:07 PM PST by Savage Beast (If Europeans cannot remember the price of appeasement, Americans are well qualified to remind them.)
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To: churchillbuff
"That nearly was the last straw, for me." Uh, there's your problem, brother. You don't go to war against satan's spawn wielding a straw. Try the armor and sword ordained for the job, else you will lose to degeneracy every time.
38 posted on 11/26/2003 2:23:57 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: All
From last week's posting: Part of the gay strategy is finding a comfortable congregation.

I believe this is true. My lesbian SIL won't come to our Calvary Chapel church because she said it made her, "feel uncomfortable." She prefers a Disciples of Christ church. Does anyone have any info on this group?
39 posted on 11/26/2003 2:34:50 PM PST by ChocChipCookie (Beware: the Chip is pissed.)
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To: churchillbuff
I have been a member of an ELCA chucrh and that gang has been slipping that way for a while too. Our pastor is a died in the wool UNC liberal. I beleive it won't be long before the gay marriages will be performed. This is why I looked into my sould and realized I do not beleive in "church". I believe in God. Churches have become examples of "group think". I am my own man. Many churches have come to stand for absolutely nothing. As stated they want to get along and go along. Sorry, you can keep that crap.
40 posted on 11/26/2003 2:37:19 PM PST by StoneColdTaxHater
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To: StoneColdTaxHater
Amen brother!
41 posted on 11/26/2003 2:45:13 PM PST by Jotmo ("Voon", said the mattress.)
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To: who knows what evil?
Sorry. I'm afraid the humor went right over my head. I'm really not all that swift...
42 posted on 11/26/2003 2:51:24 PM PST by Savage Beast (If Europeans cannot remember the price of appeasement, Americans are well qualified to remind them.)
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To: Fudd
On another note, homosexuals need to hear the Gospel of Christ as much as anyone. There is a vocal segment of the church that resorts to name-calling, and another segment that would accomodate homosexual behavior. I honestly don't think Jesus would do either.

Very well said...Jesus called sinners to His church.

43 posted on 11/26/2003 2:53:02 PM PST by Wheee The People (Krispy Kreme "R" me!)
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To: who knows what evil?
Asheville? What a surprise.

The gays ,especially lesbians have taken over .

It's a shame how they take over some of our beautiful cities.

W. Carolina mountains are fast becoming home to the crystals worshippers, witches, gays, and every other wierdo group.

44 posted on 11/26/2003 3:04:03 PM PST by Vinnie
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To: Wheee The People
Very well said...Jesus called sinners to His church.

And told them (us) to sin no more.

45 posted on 11/26/2003 3:05:55 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: who knows what evil?
"Asheville? What a surprise."

Yea, this Texan was born in Asheville, way back, when a Baptist church was on every corner. Guess I'm not ready to go back any time soon!

46 posted on 11/26/2003 3:09:04 PM PST by TRY ONE (NUKE the unborn gay whales!)
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To: churchillbuff
I wonder if Willard Fishburne is related to the world-famous ESPN fishing commentator Fish Fishburne?

47 posted on 11/26/2003 3:11:44 PM PST by TexasCajun
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Wheee The People
...Jesus called sinners to His church.

I don't remember anything about Him putting unrepentant sinners in charge of the place or asking them to set aside those elements of God's law that they didn't like.

49 posted on 11/26/2003 3:24:41 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: churchillbuff
When these kinds of infiltrations happen at a parish that has a strong endowment (from generations of wealthy parishioners or faithful tithers), it doesn't matter if the infiltrators drive people away, because the church can continue by living off the endowment.

It's what made the Universities such a tempting takeover target for the Left, too.

Basicly, you and the straight congregation were mugged. You just didn't realize it. They came, they infiltrated, they gained control over the finances, then they drove everyone else out.

The only solution is to not HAVE an endowment. If the building is leased, and the day-to-day expenses MUST be satisfied by the current congregation, then the parasites will not be attracted.

50 posted on 11/26/2003 3:28:29 PM PST by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === (Finally employed again! Whoopie))
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