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Bold Studies Consider Whether Animals Know What They Don't Know
Wall Street Journal ^ | November 28, 2003 | SHARON BEGLEY

Posted on 11/28/2003 1:03:58 PM PST by PatrickHenry

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:50:28 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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A subscription is required to access the Journal, but the entire article is posted above. The portions in bold font were emphasized by me; there is no bold font in the original.
1 posted on 11/28/2003 1:03:58 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: *crevo_list; VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Scully; LogicWings; ...
PING. [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]
2 posted on 11/28/2003 1:04:56 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: PatrickHenry
The monkeys' and dolphin's reports of uncertainty in what they know or remember, she adds, seems equivalent to human consciousness.

Degree, not kind. What a surprise - NOT!

3 posted on 11/28/2003 1:10:37 PM PST by balrog666 (Humor is a universal language.)
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To: PatrickHenry
In a related experiment, the nine democrat presidential candidates were dumped into a pool and trained to swim to a paddle if they had a plan. Any plan.

No paddle movement has yet been recorded.
4 posted on 11/28/2003 1:11:07 PM PST by Buck W.
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To: PatrickHenry
Spend some time in the open ocean with a pod of wild dolphins.

Once you've recovered from the experience, repost.

5 posted on 11/28/2003 1:13:34 PM PST by angkor
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To: PatrickHenry
"The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is.

Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.

"In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.

"The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error."

6 posted on 11/28/2003 1:16:51 PM PST by boris (The deadliest Weapon of Mass Destruction in History is a Leftist With a Word Processor)
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To: boris
That missle sounds like it's smarter than some people I've run into.
7 posted on 11/28/2003 1:21:02 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: PatrickHenry
"That missle sounds like it's smarter than some people I've run into."

But not smart enough to say, "Hey, wait a sec. If I follow this program I'm gonna die!"

--Boris

8 posted on 11/28/2003 1:25:54 PM PST by boris (The deadliest Weapon of Mass Destruction in History is a Leftist With a Word Processor)
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To: PatrickHenry
"If we were equally rigorous in what proof we demand of consciousness in people," he said, "we couldn't infer conscious thought in each other, either."

I often find it difficult to infer conscious thought in other people.


9 posted on 11/28/2003 1:29:37 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tagline. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: PatrickHenry
I read that animals are impressed by nature directly through the senses and respond immediately to the impressions received, rather than using thinking as per human customs. Thinking would inhibit their immediate response to impressions.
10 posted on 11/28/2003 1:37:42 PM PST by Consort
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To: PatrickHenry
I have often wondered if the cattle realize we are just fattening them up for a good meal!
11 posted on 11/28/2003 1:42:32 PM PST by Voltage
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To: angkor; PatrickHenry
Try swimming in the open ocean with a small school of porpoises, in the wild, in Hawaii, with no other humans for miles...

Makes you appreciate the intelligence that God put into these creatures from Creation past.
12 posted on 11/28/2003 1:51:54 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: Buck W.
In a related experiment, the nine democrat presidential candidates were dumped into a pool and trained to swim to a paddle if they had a plan. Any plan. No paddle movement has yet been recorded.

And in yet another experiment a prominent Democrat Senator was dumped into a body of water. He swam immediately to the other side and checked into a cheap motel.

13 posted on 11/28/2003 2:00:33 PM PST by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: PatrickHenry
"If we were equally rigorous in what proof we demand of consciousness in people," he said, "we couldn't infer conscious thought in each other, either."

I have been reasonably certain of the truth of this supposition since the Carter election.

14 posted on 11/28/2003 2:03:13 PM PST by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: PatrickHenry
"Meta-cognition is considered one of our most sophisticated capacities." Among other things, it's the ability to realize, after perusing a column, that you have no idea what you just read.

I often have that feeling after reading Reuters "news" and books by liberals and listening to speeches by Dems. Seemed to me that they were intentionally plotting to bewilder people into submission. But perhaps I do the Rats an injustice. After all, the article goes on to state:

Rats and pigeons, though undeniably clever, don't seem to know when they don't know.

15 posted on 11/28/2003 2:04:32 PM PST by PoisedWoman (Rat candidates: "What a sorry lot!" says Barbara Bush)
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To: RaceBannon
Try swimming in the open ocean with a small school of porpoises, in the wild.

Been there, done that. Bottle-nose dolphins, not porpoises.

Were you on their turf, or were they on your turf?

Who's the smartest mammal in the ocean?

You know the answer. Confess.

16 posted on 11/28/2003 2:09:37 PM PST by angkor
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To: PoisedWoman
Gregory Bateson was the philosopher/anthropologist who made it known that only humans and dolphins exercise the faculty of "learning about learning."

In other words, both dolphins and humans know "what we don't know" and know how to learn more.

Bateson called it "second-order learning," and only humans and dolphins are know to possess that faculty.

17 posted on 11/28/2003 2:16:54 PM PST by angkor
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To: John Valentine
"And in yet another experiment a prominent Democrat Senator was dumped into a body of water. He swam immediately to the other side and checked into a cheap motel.

And left his female companion to float to the surface in a locked car, thereby failing life's test!

18 posted on 11/28/2003 2:18:17 PM PST by FixitGuy
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To: Buck W.
No paddle movement has yet been recorded.

Of course, it could also be that the group of nine has been trained by Ted "the swimmer" Kennedy, in which case they probably hopped out of the pool, talked to their cousin, went to a hotel and made sure that they were seen by a hotel employee around 2:30 a.m. or so - and then in the morning, feigned fatigue, amnesia, yada yada yada. For more details, read "Senatorial Privelege" by Leo Damore, or visit ytedk.com

19 posted on 11/28/2003 2:20:02 PM PST by hillary's_fat_a**
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To: PatrickHenry
Cool article. Doesn't surprise me at all.

20 posted on 11/28/2003 2:25:10 PM PST by ChemistCat (Hang in there, Terri. Absorb. Take in. Live. Heal.)
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