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To: highlander_UW
Atheism is a religion, they just hate to admit it. Until you can PROVE God does not exist then you're working in the realm of faith my friend.

You can't prove a negative. But if one were to try, they'd first have to ask you to define "God."

So you'd define "God" as an all-powerful being.

Then they'd say, "you mean, He can do the impossible?"

And you'd say "Yes."

Then they'd say that if the impossible can be done, by anything or anyone, it's not impossible.

If you say "No," then He's not "all-powerful."

In other words, when you really look at the concept of "God," it's internally incoherent and makes no sense.

63 posted on 12/05/2003 11:51:18 AM PST by wizardoz (A Republic, if you can keep it.)
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To: wizardoz
"In other words, when you really look at the concept of "God," it's internally incoherent and makes no sense."


the thought experiment doesn't work if nothing is impossible.
79 posted on 12/05/2003 12:20:46 PM PST by Flightdeck
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To: wizardoz
"Here's a well-known question that's often used to kick off theological debates: Is it possible for God to create an object so large / heavy that He cannot move it? There are several variations on this question. Another more secular variation asks, "What happens when an irresistible force meets and immovable object?" Of course, these questions are designed to be paradoxical. Most people who believe in God would agree that He is omnipotent - that He is all-powerful. Yet answering either yes or no to the question seems to be equivalent to saying that God is limited. If God can create an object that He can't move, then He's limited as to what he can do. And if He can't create such an object, then He's limited as to what He can create. So, what are we to make of this paradox? Is God limited? Is the question merely nonsense? Many people who try to tackle this question assume that God - being all-powerful - is not limited by anything. Nothing is impossible for Him. However, there's another aspect of God that often gets overlooked when addressing this question. God is also all-wise. This means that while nothing is impossible to Him, he does not allow Himself to do anything just because He can do it. I believe that God - through His wisdom - imposes limitations upon Himself. Some people may balk at the idea that God is limited, but here's an easy illustration. There's something that we human beings can do that God cannot do. We can do evil. Some might suggest that God's inability to do evil does not make him limited. I suppose it depends on your concept of what a limitation is. Many of us see a limitation as a bad thing - a weakness - an imperfection - a hindrance. Indeed, many limitations are hindrances, but limitations can be good as well. We set boundaries for our children for their well-being. We make laws (ideally) to preserve order and justice in our society. Some people answer the question by saying that the question is meaningless, because it asks God to do something that is logically inconsistent. I'm not yet sure what I think about this. I would tend to agree; however, I think about some of the things being explored in quantum mechanics. Things such as light being observed as both a particle and wave. This would seem to be logically inconsistent as well, but it's generally accepted by most quantum physicists. Perhaps the best answer to this question was the one given by the Usenet Oracle: The Usenet Oracle has pondered your question deeply. Your question was: If God is all-powerful, can he create a stone so large that he cannot lift it? And in response, thus spake the Oracle: This is a question often brought up by people arguing against the existence of an omnipotent God. I tried it out once. Oracle: Hey, God, you can do anything, right? God: This is true. Oracle: Well, I bet you can't create an immovable stone. God: Oh yeah? How much? Oracle: Ten pints and a packet of peanuts. God: You're on. Oracle: That's pretty impressive. God: You bet it is. Oracle: How about a double-or-nothing bet? God: Sure, why not? Oracle: I bet you can't move it over there. God: That's not fair! You're playing with semantics and petty logic. Oracle: So? If you can move it, I owe you the twenty pints and 2 packets of peanuts. If you can't, then I don't owe you anything. God: Let me think about this one... Got it. You see, I can play games with logic and semantics too.
82 posted on 12/05/2003 12:29:13 PM PST by Greek
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To: wizardoz
You can't prove a negative. But if one were to try, they'd first have to ask you to define "God." So you'd define "God" as an all-powerful being.

LOL, nice straw man arguement you have going here with yourself. Care to put any other responses into my mouth?

If one can't prove a negative, how can atheists claim there is no God definitively except upon their faith?

Then they'd say, "you mean, He can do the impossible?" And you'd say "Yes." Then they'd say that if the impossible can be done, by anything or anyone, it's not impossible. If you say "No," then He's not "all-powerful." In other words, when you really look at the concept of "God," it's internally incoherent and makes no sense.

Sorry, but I've been around a little to long to be cowed by a silly word game. Nothing is impossible for God, but there are plenty of things that are impossible for humans. And you can just skip past the moving an imovable object game as well...logic impossiblities do not prove or disprove anything except one's skills in logic.

96 posted on 12/05/2003 1:06:52 PM PST by highlander_UW
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