IBM Wins motions in SCO case

Groklaw ^ | 12/05/03 | Pamela Johnson

[Salo]

First Report from Grokker Inside Hearing: IBM Wins Both Motions to Compel

Friday, December 05 2003 @ 02:30 PM EST

Our first report from a Groklaw volunteer, sam, who attended the court hearing is that IBM won both of its motions to compel and SCO's motion was set for a later date. Here is what sam is telling us, and it's subject to further information and confirmation as more news arrives. We have several attending and I'll do a followup, but this is the first word. Here is what sam is telling us:

"Just returned from the hearing.

"Needless to say there was blood all over the floor on the SCO side of the aisle none on the 'left' side.

"Judge granted both IBM motions to compel, gave SCO thirty days to comply 'with specificity' and suspended further discovery. Did not rule on the SCO motion until next hearing scheduled for Friday, Jan 23 and 10:00 am.

"SCO did say that they will be filing a complaint within days on copyright violations.

"More to come" So it looks like they have 30 days to finally tell us what code they are talking about "with specificity". Finally.

[Salo]

The beginning of the end for SCO.

[Salo]

Pinging interested parties.

[Southack]

This was expected. IBM has the right to know *which* lines of code are alledged violations of contracts and copyright.

SCO puts up or shuts up next, but this thing ain't near over kid.

[Salo]

Unless you believe, as I do, that SCO has nothing to put up. :-)

SCO puts up or shuts up next, but this thing ain't near over kid.

[stylin_geek]

You would think, if SCO's lawyers are any good, they would have been expecting this, and have a couple of game plans mapped out on how to play this. Sorry about the gamesmanship analogy, however, I do think it is somewhat aprapros

[isthisnickcool]

(Note to self. Short SCOX)

[js1138]

Based on Boyes (sp?) track record, SCO is counting on the opposition to give up voluntarily.

[Petronski]

SCO-Death-Spiral Update!

[freedomcrusader]

What you said. SCO's house of cards just had the bottom knocked out.

[Petronski]

If SCO is a house of cards, then the judge today granted permission for IBM to use a high-speed fan.

[stylin_geek]

I find it hard to believe this would be the case, but then again, I find it hard to believe the media takes the 9 Democratic Presidential candidates seriously.

I'm not sure, do you think I need to reset my cynicism meter or my disbelief quotient?

[Nick Danger]

I hope that this ruling gives some of our illustrious trade journalists a clue that things in the courtroom are not as SCO would have us believe.

SCO is a lot better at leveling charges in the press than they are at making the same charges under oath... with evidence. Faced with possible perjury convictions if they are caught lying, they are suddenly unwilling to say what they say every day to the news media, or to show any of this so-called "evidence" that they wave around in front of financial analysts.

What is the deal here? They said they were saving it for the courtroom. Well, here's the courtroom. Why does the judge have to literally order them to produce stuff they claim to have had for months?

In order to issue this ruling, the judge has to have already concluded that SCO is jerking the court and IBM around. This means that Mr. Boies has managed to get himself on the windy side of this judge by screwing around and playing games instead of proceeding with his so-called "case."

[Salo]

The name of the author should be Pamela Jones, not Pamela Johnson. My fault for mis-posting that.

[chilepepper]

I'm think it may be over sooner than you think...

SCO has put off publishing their numbers for the last quarter -- because their normal business has plunged. Watch for the insiders to start dumping SCOX like crazy now...

[FastCoyote]

I know most normal people don't have a clue what the SCO thing is all about, but it is hugely important to me. I consult for a ticketing company using Win2000 with Mysql and an Access VBA frontend (1/3 of the way to freedom). I'm writing my own stock market program which is platformed on Java/Mysql/FreeBSD (totally free from Billy G). The constant [buffer overrun bug updates, system updates, developer environment updates, virus updates, high license fees] that are required to live in the Microsoft world just got to be too much.

That isn't to say I don't and won't use Microsoft in the future. But if you want to run a stable, nuts and bolts business application that will be still running in 2050, the cost and headaches have just gotten out of hand.

Die! SCO Die!

[Golden Eagle]

Game 1 to IBM. But this will be a 3 set match.

[Golden Eagle]

What is the deal here? They said they were saving it for the courtroom. Well, here's the courtroom. Why does the judge have to literally order them to produce stuff they claim to have had for months?

If they have no more difficulty in printing out the lines of Dynix in Linux than they did naming the files in the first place, then this is really only further stalling the whole process, which you claim is their goal in the first place. Do you think they weren't expecting to have to enumerate this over at some point anyway? This is mere formality, IBM better be careful not to overplay it's hand.

[Richard Kimball]

Sounds like a long court battle. Is it time for Bill Gates to buy some more code licensing fees from SCO yet? Those lawyers get expensive.

[cc2k]

From the article:

---

Judge granted both IBM motions to compel, gave SCO thirty days to comply 'with specificity' and suspended further discovery.

---

First IANAL, so I could be wrong on this, but I think that last part about "suspended further discovery" means that everything is on hold until SCO answers specifically what they are complaining about. It is kind of like a "time out" during a sporting event. The deadlines for IBM's answers and everything else on the calendar will be pushed back while SCO works on producing the alleged evidence.

I think it's pretty rare for a judge to suspend discovery in an action like this. This is only one step short of dismissing the case outright.

[Southack]

"SCO has put off publishing their numbers for the last quarter -- because their normal business has plunged. Watch for the insiders to start dumping SCOX like crazy now..."

Lets not kid ourselves, SCO has no "normal business."

The real SCO changed its name and is still operating in Santa Cruz. This SCO is a shell company. It owns some rights to some things, and it is currently pursuing its perceived rights aggressively.

But this isn't about some pump-n-dump stock scam. IBM, MicroSoft, Oracle, Novell, and Red Hat wouldn't be playing at this level of the game if it was only about fleecing some over-eager, highly gullible SCOX investors ala the 1996-1999 Internet bubble operation.

It's about intellectual property. This SCO claims to own certain rights to Unix. It further claims that some of its proprietary Unix code is in Linux, among other places, in violation of either copyright, contracts, or both.

IBM's point is that SCO has to tell it precisely *which* lines of proprietary code are included in Linux (and other places) without legal permission. IBM absolutely has this right to know. After all, IBM is being sued by SCO.

So the judge could rule no other way.

Prior to this ruling, there was much gamesmanship in play. Now we are to the pivot point.

Can SCO show that proprietary Unix code to which it owns rights are included somewhere in Linux without legal permission?

We'll see SCO's efforts to that extent in 30 days.

If SCO manages to make a decent case in the next 30 days, then we'll have to wait to see how IBM defends itself as well as attacks the SCO arguments/facts.

That's where we stand today.

Now, as for speculation, I'd guess that Unix code *IS* included somewhere in Linux. Some of that Unix code might even be proprietary, copyrighted, and covered by contracts, but can SCO proves that it owns it? Doubtful.

On the other hand, I don't rule it out.

In the meantime, Oracle and MicroSoft will no doubt continue to pay Unix and Linux licensing fees to SCO for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to insure that SCO has the resources required to give their case a decent shot in the courts.

Should SCO either win or succeed in delaying the outcome of this case for some great length of time, then the software market will see some profound shifts. Should SCO lose, then the continued advance of Linux in the marketplace will no doubt proceed at an increased pace, albeit still as a minor player overall.

Needless to say, lots of fortunes on both sides of the aisle will be impacted no matter how this case ends.

[Nick Danger]

Do you think they weren't expecting to have to enumerate this over at some point anyway?

It's difficult to say. I am not as ready to convict them of perjury as you seem to be. In their court filing opposing IBM's Motion to Compel, SCO stated that no, it cannot produce such a list.

If they can't, they have no case. If they produce it now, the judge will wonder why they said they couldn't, and why they dragged everybody through this long delay. Darl McBride has been running around for months talking about his "three teams of rocket scientists" and their "spectral analysis" and his "millions of lines of code," but when his lawyers are talking to the judge under oath, they say that SCO has no such list and cannot produce one unless IBM produces it for them.

Well, you saw how that went over with the judge. No more discovery -- i.e., nobody wastes another dime on this case -- until SCO produces something that looks like an actual lawsuit, with specific charges and evidence supporting them. Eight months into the proceedings, and the Plaintiff does not seem to know what, specifically, they would like the lawsuit to be about. If you're a judge, you look at these lawyers and you think, "They filed this case without knowing what they were going to charge when they got here. They thought they would go fishing during Discovery, find something to make an issue of, and pretend that was their case." So the judge turns off Discovery and tells them they have 30 days to make something up that's convincing enough that the judge doesn't have to sanction them for filing a lawsuit under bogus pretenses... which she now knows they did.

[Salo]

I just read that the SCO's lawyers did not show up for this hearing. SCO was represented by....wait for it.....Darl McBride's *brother*.

when his lawyers are talking to the judge under oath, they say that SCO has no such list

[Petronski]

LOL. The punchline was worth the 'wait.'

[Golden Eagle]

Thanks. So what's your guess as to what happens next? Mine is they dump a million lines code on them, and say "here ya go".

[steve-b]

SCO puts up or shuts up next

SCO wouldn't be able to "put up" if they took a ton of Viagra[tm].

[steve-b]

So what's your guess as to what happens next? Mine is they dump a million lines code on them, and say "here ya go".

If they try to pull that, they are definitely going to engage the services of Darl's brother again. No real lawyer, whose career can be damaged by the sort of professional sanctions that would certainly follow, would touch it.

[HiTech RedNeck]

"Yeah, see the smoking gun Yer Honor? Here's the entire source code of UNIX and Linux. Yeah, that's the ticket Yer Honor."

IBM: Motion to dismiss SCO's lawsuit with extreme prejudice
Her Honor: Granted

[Nick Danger]

what's your guess... Mine is they dump a million lines code on them, and say "here ya go".

They already tried that. You'll recall that was their answer as to why they had been responsive to IBM's request, and therefore why IBM's Motion to Compel should be denied.

The judge has just ruled that tossing a million lines of code over the transom is not an answer to the question, "what specifically -- by file name and line of a specific linux kernel version -- are you accusing IBM of having misappropriated?"

This is a very weird ruling. This judge has just told the Plaintiff that they have 30 days to tell the Defendant and the Court what this lawsuit is about, specifically. How often does a judge have to compel the Plaintiff to tell the Court what the lawsuit is even about? SCO has been engaging in some serious game-playing with this, and the judge is up-to-here with it. You can tell that because she also took the highly unusual step of suspending further Discovery until SCO complies... a signal that the Court suspects that this lawsuit will not long continue. The last thing Boies should try now is another ruse. This Judge is all rused out.

The next step had better be that SCO shows up with a reason to have a trial. They were just told they haven't got one.

[cc2k]

Golden Eagle wrote:

---

Thanks. So what's your guess as to what happens next? Mine is they dump a million lines code on them, and say "here ya go".

---

Actually, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if that was SCO's response. However, that's almost guaranteed to be a losing strategy.

To refute that, IBM would only need to find a few hundred lines in a few different modules where SCO's claims were totally bogus. Then, they present that to the judge and say, "the other 999,600 lines are equally bogus and SCO is just trying to waste our time."

If SCO has a winning case, they will first offer as much code as they can, that they can prove they own the rights to and they can prove that IBM misappropriated and contributed to Linux. But they can't make any mistakes now. At this point, SCO has zero credibility, and if they try to claim ownership of anything they can't prove they own, their entire case will probably be judged on that kind of mistake.

The problem here is that SCO's actions in court so far have completely eroded any credibility they might have had. If they had some credibility, they could bring a dozen things in and still win if only nine looked like legitimate violations. So, if they had put a dozen examples out back in June, having two or three mistakes might not have hurt them too badly. Since it's now December, and they haven't produced anything looking like a valid complaint in 8 months, they are running out of time and operating with zero (or possibly negative) credibility.

In short, if they had any chance of a winning case, they would have presented the evidence in court already. Instead, they presented some "evidence" at a trade show and got completely embarassed. They might be able to pull something out of a hat at this late time, but I seriously doubt it.

[dennisw]

Thanks. Your post sems to be an accurtae summation of SCO failure to produce in court.

[HiTech RedNeck]

And these antics are only hurting UNIX if it truly has any legitimate claims against Linux. This isn't a trial, it's a carnival.

[Salo]

This is an update from a Groklaw mirror:
Judge Tells SCO: No, *You* Have to Show the Code First

Friday, December 05 2003 @ 04:13 PM EST

The big news from the hearing today is that Judge Wells told SCO that they have to go first. They have to show IBM what code they are alleging is infringing. All during discovery, SCO has been telling IBM they had to show all their code first, and then SCO would identify the alleged infringements. IBM kept telling SCO in reply that they had the burden, as plaintiffs, to at least tell IBM what code was involved. Today the judge told SCO that IBM was right. SCO has 30 days to comply. IBM doesn't have to turn over anything until they do it. The judge's order will be filed Wednesday, and SCO has a month to show the code. They can't force IBM to go first. That dance is over.
Cody Hilton of Guru Labs , a Utah Linux training company, attended the hearing, and the second big piece of news is that David Boies didn't show up. Darl's brother represented SCO. His brother is Kevin McBride, the same person we noted who was involved in writing the Open Letter yesterday.

Why Boies didn't show up is hard to understand. And then again, maybe not. Brent Hatch was there and so was Darl. There was no media presence at all. Or more accurately, there was a lot of press there in the building but they were all there to cover the Olympic bribery trial , which got thrown out by the judge. Nobody in the courthouse was interested in talking to Darl today, according to my eyewitnesses, to the extent that they noticed, and they were looking.

Cody talked to him, though, after it was over. He asked him why he was there, and Darl said he just wanted to get a feel for it. Cody asked him what he thought about how it went, with IBM winning both motions. Darl said he expected it. Cody rode in the elevator with IBM's Marriott and asked him how he felt about how things went. Marriott said, "We're happy. Everything went as we'd planned. We're happy with the decision."

For IBM, it was David Marriott and Todd M. Shaughnessy. There were about 15 people there sitting in the gallery, including one woman, who rumor had it might be the patent attorney SCO hired and mentioned as possibly having a conflict of interest. But that is only a rumor.

The room was small, with maybe seats in the gallery for about 20 people, but no one was denied entrance. There were seats available.

Cody says that when the judge entered, she told them that it was her inclination to grant IBM's motions, and then she let both sides speak. First, SCO's Keven McBride spoke for about 40 minutes. The judge interrupted a few times and to Cody, it seemed like the presentation was hard to follow. Basically, he was arguing that IBM should hand over code first, so SCO could go over it and then categorize the violations as to whether they were copyright violations, trade secret, etc. Then Marriott spoke for IBM. He spoke for only 20 minutes. Cody described it as clear, crisp, easy to follow, easy to understand. He cited a case, Xerox Corp. v. International Business Machines Corp., he believes, which you can find mentioned here, in footnote 3 of IBM's Memorandum in Opposition to SCO's Motion to Compel Discovery, where the judge ruled like this:

"[3] See also Xerox Corp. v. International Business Machines Corp., 64 F.R.D. 367, 371 (S.D.N.Y., 1974) ('[Plaintiff] should be able to identify in detail the trade secrets and confidential information alleged to have been misappropriated by [defendant]. Clearly until this is done, neither the court nor the parties can know, with any degree of certainty, whether discovery is relevant or not; and it is doubtful whether [plaintiff] can undertake a meaningful discovery program'.)"
The hearing lasted an hour and a half.

Frank Sorenson was there too and he also reports similarly:

"Judge Wells came into the courtroom, and announced that she had read all the filings and the relevant case law, and it was her intention to grant IBM's Motions and postpone any further Discovery until this matter was cleared up. SCO was then given a chance to try to convince her otherwise. Kevin McBride (who turns out to be Darl's brother) argued for SCO, and pretty much rambled for maybe 40 minutes.

"David Marriott then argued for IBM, and did a way better job, and did it all in 15-20 minutes!

"A little more back and forth, and Judge Wells ruled. IBM will prepare an order before next Wednesday, and SCO will get 30 days after that to satisfy interrogatories 1, 2, 4, 12, and 13. A follow-up hearing is set for January 23rd."
Here are Cody's notes so far. He cautions that his notes are a summary of what occurred in the courtroom from his perspective. There are gaps and some truncated dialog, as happens when you are scribbling as fast as you can. We will have more from Frank shortly and a complete transcript eventually. Here are the court minutes.

****

Judge: Intention is to grant IBM's motion to compel delivery (interrogatives 12 and 13) . Plaintiff to file responses within 30 days. Postpone discovery until compliance achieved. There is a protective order in place.

K. McBride: Would like to put motion on hold until specific discovery is covered.

Judge: There is a circular pattern going on in discovery.

K. McBride: Wants to convince the Judge that specific discovery should be entered. This case is basically about infringement. There needs to be a clear definition of what source code infringes on Copyright law, trade secret law, and contract violations. Sites case of Sun vs. Microsoft where Microsoft misappropriated derivative works. Microsoft made changes to Java. This is about the derivative works. SCO acknowledges that IBM owns the derivative works but there is a contact in place on what can be done with it.

Continues with an explanation of Unix. Describes Unix and the preferred OS for large corporations. Unix was licensed to large software vendors like IBM and HP. The license stipulated what the software could be used for. SCO needs to know what IBM put into Linux whether it violated Copyright, trade secret or confidential information. SCO needs to see source code, development methods, developer notes related to the Unix derivative AIX.

Linux is undermining Unix, and SCO does not know what it is IBM contributed into Linux. What IBM has indicated to the public is they have contributed to Linux and SCO wants to know what it is they are referring to.

Judge: SCO has also made comments in public about what SCO would show in court. The idea is to prove why/why not compel discovery

K. McBride: We will comply with interrogatives 12 and 13 if the Court wishes but would like to focus on interrogatives 1,2,4. SCO wants all development notes, source code, etc on AIX then they can compare and see what the violations are.

Judge: Reference to a case with Utah Medical Products and another with Lukadia (Sp). Something about knowing what is relevant to future discovery.

K. McBride: SCO has to distinguish what code violations is part of copyright, contract, or trade secret law. Has to see what IBM has included. Will be filing a copyright infringement case in a few weeks.

Continues on with a characterization of Unix-Ware,Unix on Intel. Explanation of the Monterrey project and the sharing of SCO technology with IBM for Unix on Linux OS.

Judge: Has SCO shown what secrets were stolen?

Marriott: Has not.

[begins his turn] I will show that 1. Information about Operating Systems and source code 2. Why Judge's preliminary decision is correct 3. Shortcomings of SCO's discovery.

Points out that Plaintiff has distributed Linux for a long time. States that the crux of argument is in paragraph 101 of the case. Marriott hands out two books one book is thick (800+ pages) and the other is thinner (300+ pages). The thick book is print out of a file from the 2.5 Linux. The thin book is a print out from a file from AIX. Using the books he says that IBM has been accused of taking code from the small private book and putting it into the large public book, but won't say what code is in question. SCO has so far just handed IBM the small book and said the volitions are in there.

Citing a Xerox case an one other the burden of proof is places on the Plaintiff. SCO has not identified specifically on Unix file in question. Nor have they identified one single file in Linux that is in question. SCO has been touting the existence of evidence but has not shown any. SCO executives have repeatedly said in the media there is evidence of violations but IBM has not seen the evidence.

SCO has not even shown IBM the apparent evidence SCO has shown to the rest of the world under NDA. SCO is even going after other companies that use Linux. SCO is accusing Linux users of violations when they haven't even shown IBM what the Linux violations are.

K. McBride: SCO must see the AIX derivative works to clarify what law applies to the violations. The evidence that SCO executives are talking about is contributions of SysV code to Linux by SGI. IBM has put Dynix code and derivative code into Linux and SCO wants to see it. SCO has produced 100 more CDs than IBM has during discovery. SCO wants IBM to produce all Dynix and AIX code to derive evidence.

Marriott: IBM can produce the Dynix code and did so as of yesterday. IBM can also produce the derivative code, but IBM will not, unless compelled to, provide all 40 million lines of AIX code.

K. McBride: We want all 40 million lines of code. We will give it to our experts so they can digest it.

Marriott: Because Linux is open to the public you can go on to the Internet to any number of sites and look up the offending code.

Judge: The initial order is appropriate. Will grant IBM motion to compel both interrogatives 12 and 13. SCO must file response in 30 days. SCO must file affidavit if they cannot respond. SCO is to correct deficiencies in affidavit filed 11/4/2003. Does Mr. K. McBride want IBM to indicate which files they want from SCO?

Marriott: We want what SCO has said 5 months ago they were going to give us. There is nothing new here on what we need.

Judge: All discovery will be postponed until SCO has responded to IBM. Next hearing 1/23/2004 at 10:00 is all motions are addressed. Will not rule on SCO' s motions. Will address them in January if SCO has completed motions

K. McBride: Can we have that date put on hold if we need more time.

Judge: I will hold you to the 30 days but the hearing date can be changed.

[dennisw]

Game 1 to IBM. But this will be a 3 set match.

Your loyalties are clouded. As you know MS will reveal millions of lines of code to the ChiComs and no one else. All so they can flog their product in China. So much for your slams and digs at Red Flag Linux. Microsoft is not an American company. They are in it only for Microsoft

Over and out.

[Bush2000]

This isn't a trial, it's a carnival.

LMAO! And you Linux guys are the carnies... ;-p

[Dinsdale]

Buzzzt.

Microlimp reveals the source to basically any government/Fortune 500 that makes enough noise about security issues, spends enough money and will sign non-disclosures (what a non-disclosure means to China is a question).

Do you really believe NSA does'nt see the source? You are aware that versions with debug info have leaked over the years. NSA not only sees the source they add back doors. This is well documented (granted the smoking gun was in Win3.1 but nothing has changed).

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

I love the subheadline comment from this Cnet article:

SCO Group Chief Executive Darl McBride is invoking the Founding Fathers in his company's battle over Unix intellectual property rights.

[chilepepper]

Everything you say is true, except that I read somewhere that SCO's shenanigans leave them liable to a law-suit by the old time SCO stockholders. SCO *DOES* have an installed customer base for their legitimate products, and basically opted for flushing that down the loo in order to pursue their IP extorsion scheme -- the problem is that their SEC filings didn't really cover that aspect of their business...

I think that SCO depended on timing quite a bit in order to make their pig fly, and it is finally beginning to unravel

I am *astonished* that their flimsy claims have held up this long -- if the leaked code they presented at that conference is typical of their case, they won't have a chance unless they can get OJ's jury...

[shadowman99]

If I were a SCOX shareholder reading any of today's courtroom events, one thing would have to jump out: Where's David Boise?

SCO hired a high profile attorney and then Darl's brother represents SCO in court today?

Also I'd be asking why SCO has pushed beck it's public disclosure for the 3rd quarter from Dec. 8 to Dec. 22. Perhaps they will push it back to Jan. 6, 2004!

If I were a SCOX shareholder, I would have a sell order in for Monday's market open.

[shadowman99]

More from Groklaw:


This write-up is the combined result of the notes of Evan McNabb and Frank and Elizabeth Sorenson. We also got some notes and a chart from Mark Belnap, and Stuart Jansen helped in typing everything up. We have requested a transcript, but the court reporter said it may take a week or so before it will be available (we'll get it the same time that the lawyers do). We wrote down everything we could, and have attempted to give a general play-by-play of what happened during the hearing. Most of the wording is approximate, but when in quotes, we're pretty sure we got it word-for-word. Stuff in brackets either gives a description of what is happening or the gist of what someone said.

Judge Wells has a very small courtroom, and can accommodate approximately 20 people in the audience. About 15 people were present in the audience, including the court security officer. Before the hearing began, members of the audience chatted a little, and realized that most of us were local Linux users (vim won the quick-poll).

The SCO lawyers came in at about 9:50, and sat at the Defendant's table (left). Judge Wells' Courtroom Deputy asked them to move to the correct table (right). SCO's attorneys were Kevin McBride (Darl McBride's brother) and Brent Hatch (who wore a light suit and Christmas bowtie). Darl McBride (who arrived just before the door was closed) sat immediately behind them with another attorney (we think) whose name we missed. He had no bodyguards (unless that was who we thought was the lawyer).

IBM's lawyers appeared at about 9:57, and David Marriott and Todd Shaughnessy sat at the table. Amy Sorenson [no relation] was also present, but sat on the back row of the courtroom.

As each party entered, they checked in with the courtroom deputy, Amy Pehrson, who also asked who would be speaking for each side. Kevin McBride spoke for SCO, and David Marriott spoke for IBM. Also present was some sort of intern or assistant to Judge Wells (She jokingly referred to him as the brains), and she also made sure that he had copies of all the documents. There was a court reporter present, and she was nice and friendly, and helped us figure out how to get a transcript. At 10am, the deputy asked if everyone was present from both parties (yes), then went into Judge Wells' chambers. She emerged shortly, commanded "All rise!", and the judge came in.

Judge: I have reviewed all of the memorandums, including the most recent filings, and am up to date. [Note: We stopped by the Court Clerk's office on the way out for copies of the most recent filings, and the file was in Judge Wells' chambers--she really was up-to-date. ] After reviewing everything, my intention for the day is to grant IBM's motion, and to require SCO to file responses within 30 days, or to require SCO to file affidavits as to why they couldn't respond. IBM's responses should correct deficiencies to the 11/4 addendum to include interrogatories 12 & 13. I'd like to postpone any other discovery until this has been done. [Checked with both attorneys to make sure there was a protective order in place.] I am willing to hear arguments from both sides for or against proposed intention. [Asked who wanted to go first.]

K. McBride: [Offers to start.]

Marriot: [Agrees.]

K. McBride: May I have a few minutes to convince you otherwise? Because the issues are complex, and we want to suggest a more appropriate path, put the motion on hold until a specific discovery is produced.

Judge: It appears that "what is happening is somewhat circular." Seems to be failure to confer under rule 37. [Note: Rule 37 says you have made good faith efforts to obtain complete responses to the interrogatories without court action, but have been unable to do so.] We can't get off the ground until we get started.

K. McBride: What really should happen is specific discovery should be identified and then we will reply with our discovery. The case at the fundamental level is infringement. We need a clear definition of "what source code is at issue" before discussing types of infringement. "This is a complex case, your honor." [NOTE: He pointed out a number of times that this was a complex case. In case any of us missed it the first and second times.] There was some contract disputes, some copyright disputes, and some of neither. This is the frontier of interaction between copyright and contract law. [Cited Sun v. Microsoft, 1999 in 9th circuit court handed out copy of material related to case.] "Some paragraphs are worth reading." Microsoft made changes and distributed Java. The case is about interaction of copyright and contract law. [ Pulled out big chart and asked for permission to display it. Mark Belnap later copied this chart down, and we have tried to recreate it here]

Judge: "If you can find a place to put it, go for it." [Invited IBM to come behind the bench to see chart if necessary.] "My court room is spatially challenged."

K. McBride: [Gives small copies of chart to IBM lawyers]

K. McBride: I will give a background of licensing issues between the two companies. This case "involves the genesis of computer software for large corporations." All corporations use Unix at the Fortune 1000 level and have used it for over 20 years. AT&T started Unix and licensed multiple parties to modify it. SCO acquired all the rights to Unix. "SCO is in the shoes of AT&T." IBM had a special license, but Sequent had a standard license. There was a scope clause in the license limiting what you could use the software for. You could use it and modify it, provided it was treated as part of the original software product. IBM is obligated to maintain some kind of confidentiality under some kind of law, whether copyright, contract, or trade secrets. [NOTE: The level of specificity is McBride's, not ours.] Do we have a copyright case? A trade secret case? [NOTE: somewhat rhetorical] They can't step out of making money with it. "You can't use your stuff in violation of our license." We have no problem saying that AIX is IBM's, they just can't use it in violation of our contract. [NOTE: he did specifically state several times that they acknowledge that AIX belongs to IBM]

We need to identify first all this stuff IBM put into Linux. We know that IBM gave away source code, development methods, and sequences into Linux. "We don't have issue with the non-infringing part of Linux." "We're not making it up new." IBM did contribute stuff to Linux, "we just don't know what it is." Linux is undermining the entire Unix operating system market. We know IBM contributed stuff because they boasted about their contributions in the press.

Judge: "It isn't just IBM making public statements is it?" My concern is, I want to focus back on the question of motion to compel.

K. McBride: I'll hurry up. [Starts reading IBM quotes so fast the court reporter had to ask him to slow down. Quotes IBM about donating to Linux and making it as strong as Linux.] We're happy to live with what they've said and what we've said. Specifically addresses interrogatories 12 and 13. IBM's interrogatory 12 is not a part of the case to us, but if they court wants us to, we'll do it. For IBM's interrogatories 1, 2, and 4, we need IBM to produce all versions and developer notes for AIX. Then we can compare and make very clear specification about what contributions and what kinds. Staying discovery would do tremendous injustice and keep us from explaining to the court what's what and why.

Judge: So, tell me why [she mentions two particular cases IBM brought up in their Memoranda ] don't apply to this case. These cases say that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. What is relevant to future discovery? "None of us know!"

K. McBride: Neither of these cases address our specific facts. We won't know what is trade secrets and what is contract and what is copyright until we see IBM's discovery. We will file a second amended complaint regarding copyrights within the week.

Our trade secrets claims come from the joint development starting in 1997 time frame, Project Monterey. [History of RISC and Intel platforms, no one was focusing on Intel except SCO, who spent 16 months making Unix work on Intel.] IBM was left out in the cold without an operating system they could sell as Intel chips got big. In Project Monterey, we we gave them our stuff, trade secrets stuff, and they did Linux at the same time secretly, and then stepped out of Monterey and used our stuff. We've given everything to them, all of our knowledge and trade secrets. They have the code.

Judge: What about the pages in non-machine-readable format?


K. McBride: We gave them all our source code.

Judge: But did you give it to them in 100,000's of pages of unusable text?

K. McBride: "You have to have discovery of the universe" and then we can figure stuff out.

Judge: [Turns the time over to IBM's attorneys]

D. Marriott: I will cover three issues: 1) operating system and source code background; 2) what is at issue, proposed ruling is great; 3) some examples of shortcomings of SCO Group's Responses to Interrogatories.

Without software, a computer is a lump of metal. You take source code, put it through a compiler, get out 1's and 0's. [Gives the judge, assistant, and SCO's attorneys a booklet with all of his supplementary material for his arguments.] One of the pages shows an example of source code, comments in red and code in black. "Unix is a family of operating systems." Linux is also an operating system. Only Linux is developed publicly, as a "massive collaborative exercise". [explains Linux development process, and shows diagram from book--we think it is the diagram Linus and Andrew Morton presented here, and which was discussed here on Groklaw.]

Show [from the book] an example email submission to Linux by an employee of SCO. SCO began in 1994 as a Linux distributor, contributed to Linux. The Crux of SCO's case is paragraph 101 [in book--we think he is referring to SCO's amended complaint].

[Holds up 2 books, one with about 200 pages in it and the other with about 500 pages. Gives copies to Judge, assistant, and SCO. McBride jokes as he gets his copy, "Is this AIX you're finally producing?"] The little book represents Unix source code, the large book represents a single file of Linux source code. They are claiming that we took some of this [little book] and put it in this [big book]. [Talked for a bit about the 2 books (each book represents a chapter of a larger book, which represents a single version of Linux or Unix). He compares sizes, subtley pointing out how silly the claim sounds. Pointed out that SCO still has not said what parts of small book IBM supposedly put in which parts of big book.] We don't even know what book [version], chapter, or file of Unix we're talking about. We don't know what book [version], chapter, or file of Linux we're talking about. [He mentions that the physical book he's holding up (the bigger, Linux book) actually contains the printout of a single file from a single version of Linux.] This file has 31597 lines, and comes from Linux 2.5.69 [include/asm-ia64/sn/sn2/shub_mmr.h fits this description].

In order to file the complaint, SCO had to have what they say they have. Case law says a party may not dump information on a party and expect them to extract relevant information. Actually, many cases that say that. We moved to compel after waiting 4 months, then got some supplemental responses that are still inadequate. There are 14,548 chapters [files] in Unix, millions of lines of code, and we don't know which lines they say we misappropriated.

It is not just IBM that has a problem with this. They are also accusing Linux users. This is like stopping someone walking out of Barnes and Noble who just bought a Linux book and saying, that book holds our stuff, now you have to pay us in order to keep the book.

[Talks about how SCO has shown stuff to other people under an NDA] "We shouldn't need an NDA. We have a protective order."

The only case that SCO quotes actually doesn't contradict our case examples. It is a copyright case which, as of now, SCO hasn't accused us of yet.

"We don't think they had any evidence at the time they filed the case and we don't think they have any evidence now." "No reasonable person could conclude that SCO has" stated their claims with specificity.

K. McBride: "There is no trade secret in Unix System 5. Copyright yes." "There are trade secrets in UnixWare... that was given to IBM in the joint development project."

"Confidential information is not a trade secret."

These are the most recent CD's produced from both us and IBM [holds up 2 CD-R's]. Ours is numbered 122, and theirs is only numbered 21. I guess we just got 22 and 23 today, but we've produced 100 more CDs than they have. IBM should be ordered to give us AIX and Dynix, then we can make more concrete allegations after 30 days.

Marriott: We have agreed to give AIX and Dynix, just not every iteration. That would be 40 million pages.

K. McBride: "We want the 40 million pages!"

Judge: "And you will digest them by Sunday?"

K. McBride: We have expert analysts who can go through it [they want 30 days to go over the code].

D. Marriott: [closing remarks] Linux is an open development model, and Her Honor can go online and see it being developed at any time.

Judge: Okay, this is my ruling, it is essential to get the ball rolling. My initial ruling stands. At this time, I will grant IBM's Motion to Compel both sets of interrogatories. IBM is to add Interrorgatories 12 and 13 to the listed deficiencies. SCO will have 30 days after the ruling is recorded to comply. If they can't in good faith, they should file affidavits as to why they cannot.

IBM should correct the deficiences in their addendum filed Nov 4th [to add interrogatories 12 & 13]. [Marriott needs to get the complete list of missing/incomplete stuff to McBride.] All other discovery is posponed. By Wednesday of next week, IBM should submit the order, then SCO has 30 days, and then let's have a hearing about 2 weeks after that, around mid January.

[discussing of timing, etc. Judge was willing to give more time, after the 30 days was up for briefings, but not more than 30 days to comply. Hearing set for 23 January at 10am] address remaining motions of SCO's with the assumption that SCO has completed discovery with the required specificity. She is not ruling on SCO's motion at this time.

Some notes: Our general feeling is that McBride was choppy, chaotic, and random in his speaking. It felt like he was running a filibuster. IBM was direct and to the point in everything they said and did. They were prepared every time that the judge asked them a question and appeared to be right on top of everything that was going on. SCO presented exhibits to the court that were copied and stapled. IBM's exhibits and other documents had simple comb bindings and looked more professional.

When McBride was speaking, he wandered around the courtroom and seemed to be talking off the top of his head. Marriott stood at the lectern and seemed to be working from well-prepared notes that he had practiced. We enjoyed listening to his arguments.

Judge Wells seemed to have little patience for the filibuster She stated that the proceedings needed to conclude before noon (probably lunchtime!), but with both sides having a chance to state their case. She interrupted McBride several times to help focus him back on the point of the hearing. She was very fair and direct. She gave McBride every chance to convince her that she should not grant IBM's motions. She brought up several points that weren't directly addressed during arguments, indicating that she had read and absorbed the material, and noticed some of SCO's antics. She especially did not seem impressed about handing over the code on paper, rather than in a useable format. McBride remarked that he believed they had resolved that problem.

After the hearing, Darl turned around and recognized Evan from the protest. Darl said that he wasn't surprised about what happened, but it was what they had expected. We later shook hands with the IBM lawyers. They "like to keep up with what's going on" [partially referring to Groklaw].


Groklaw © Copyright 2003 Pamela Jones.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.
Comments are owned by the individual posters.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License.

[Prince Charles]

Time for the bubble to burst:

[chilepepper]

I find it more entertaining listening to friends foolish enough to run Microsoft swillware telling me how many pieces of spyware Ad-aware finds on their computers...or reading how DELL computers have the spyware already built into the machines they sell that run MS.

But, let me guess -- Bill G. will shortly announce Microsoft is selling a new package of MS sanctioned spyware remover -- sold by yearly subscription only --- BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

[chilepepper]

I think what you suggest is *EXACTLY* why Boies didn't show up... he didn't want to draw attention to it. I think SCO's game plan really depended on winning this, and they have been dealt a stinging defeat which will be interpreted as many have on this thread -- they depend on the sheep who bought SCOX to remain asleep a while longer while the insiders bail out...

[shadowman99]

The game depends on this play! QUICK.. send in the 3rd string quarterback! Perhaps David Boies has played SCO Group... if SCO starts losing it's ass in court they become a buyout target. David Boies make 20% off any sale of SCO during the litigation. IBM may not want to buy SCO as Darl had hoped, but Microsoft might.

Darl needs 4 consecutive profitable quarters for his contract incentives to pay out. If SCO is pushing back bad news by delaying the conference call and 3rd quarter earnings report, he can kiss his golden parachute goodbye.

One thing is certain... In January SCO has to go on record as to what files the "stolen secret sauce" is in. And then Linux hackers all over the world go to work replacing those files or tracing the origins of the code in those files. If the exact lines of code are sealed by the court, I imagine developers will consider the entire files in question tainted and replace them.

SCO's long term hopes for bleeding the Linux stone end in January.

[festus]

IBM can probably spend more $$ on this legal fight than SCO takes in in revenue.

This lawsuit is the last best hope for SCO.

[Bush2000]

I find it more entertaining listening to friends foolish enough to run Microsoft swillware telling me how many pieces of spyware Ad-aware finds on their computers...or reading how DELL computers have the spyware already built into the machines they sell that run MS.

Laugh it up, Forrest. Meanwhile, your little dorm OS can't run Photoshop, Premiere, AfterEffects, 3D Studio Max, and a host of other useful applications.

[Nick Danger]

if SCO starts losing it's ass in court they become a buyout target

No way. They are radioactive. IBM alone has a countersuit against them alleging four counts of patent infringement, copyright infringement, trade libel, tortious interference in its business, and more. Who would want to buy a lawsuit from IBM that could end up costing more than the purchase price to settle? Then there's the Red Hat lawsuit, also seeking treble damages for trade libel, tortious interference, etc.

If it's trouble you want, spend your money acquiring some nice little upstate New York manufacturing outfit with a Superfund site on its property. It'll be less trouble than SCO is gonna be.

[RatSlayer]

Here are the interogataries that SCO is required to provide in 30 days. I think there's going to be a bunch of people at SCO that won't be seeing their families for the holidays! Ha! Numbers 12 and 13 address the information we've all be waiting for.

INTERROGATORY NO. 1:

Please identify, with specificity (by product, file and line of code, where
appropriate) all of the alleged trade secrets and any confidential or
proprietary information that plaintiff alleges or contends IBM misappropriated
or misused, including but not limited to as alleged in ¶ 105 of the Complaint.

INTERROGATORY NO. 2:

For each alleged trade secret of any confidential or proprietary information
identified in response to interrogatory No. 1, please identify: (a) all persons
who have or have had rights to the alleged trade secret or confidential or
proprietary information; (b) the nature and source of the rights; and (c) all
efforts by any persons to maintain the secrecy or confidentiality of the alleged
trade secrets and any confidential or proprietary information.

INTERROGATORY NO. 4:

For each alleged trade secret and any confidential or proprietary information
identified in response to Interrogatory No. 1, please describe, in detail, each
instance in which plaintiff alleges or contends that IBM misappropriated or
misused the alleged trade secret or confidential or proprietary information,
including but not limited to: (a) the date of the alleged misuse or
misappropriation; (b) all persons involved in any way in the alleged misuse or
misappropriation; (c) the specific manner in which IBM is alleged to have
engaged in misuse or misappropriation; and (d) with respect to any code or
method plaintiff alleges or contends that IBM misappropriated or misused, the
location of each portion of such code or method in any product, such as AIX, in
Linux, in open source, or in the public domain.



INTERROGATORY NO. 12:

Please identify, with specificity (by file and line of code), (a) all source
code and other material in Linux (including but not limited to the Linux kernel,
any Linux operating sytem and any Linux distribution) to which plaintiff has
rights; and (b) the nature of plaintiff's rights, including but not limited to
whether and how the code or other material derives from UNIX.

INTERROGATORY NO. 13:

For each line of code and other materials identified in response to
Interrogatory No. 12, please state whether (a) IBM has infringed plaintiff's
rights, and for any rights IBM is alleged to have infringed, describe in detail
how IBM is alleged to have infringed plaintiff's rights; and (b) whether
plaintiff has ever distributed code or other material or otherwise made it
available to the public, as part of a Linux distribution or otherwise, and, if
so, the circumstances under which it was distributed or otherwise made
available, including but not limited to the product(s) in which it was
distributed or made available, and the terms under which is was distributed or
made available (such as under the GPL or any other license).

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Thanks for that detail.

Looks like they may be scouring the streets around Provo for manpower to help them answer the questions, unless they were just kidding!

[Southack]

"if SCO starts losing it's ass in court they become a buyout target. ... In January SCO has to go on record as to what files the "stolen secret sauce" is in. And then Linux hackers all over the world go to work replacing those files or tracing the origins of the code in those files."

No, and not exactly.

No, SCO is not a legitimate buyout target. If SCO loses in court, that means that it didn't have the rights that it claimed to own. That means that SCO becomes subject to the full force of IBM's patents and copyrights, as well as completely open to liable and counter-suits. Since the liability of all of that exceeds the market value of any single company in America today (including MicroSoft), no one would dare PAY money to own both SCO as well as be liable for SCO's court damages.

So for SCO, this trial is all or nothing. Either they win big and get soak IBM, Novell, Red Hat, and others for massive fees and damages, or else they cease to operate, doors close, and their game is over.

And simply replacing the code at this point is too late. Linux hackers aren't going to be able to save Novell, Red Hat, and IBM if SCO wins. Those companies have already shipped Linux copies to paying customers, so any damage will have already been done. And should those big name companies get smashed in court over Linux, the very name "Linux" will become radioactive to companies around the world. It would be both a PR as well as financial disaster of rare scale.

Moreover, since Linux really is based on Unix, what SCO will probably show in court is that a preponderance of Linux, including the entire Kernel, is an alleged violation. Rather than re-write the entire Kernel and for that matter, the entire OS, developers would be better off starting from scratch and at least give up the radioactive Linux name...should SCO win.

That being said, it is unlikely that SCO can prove that it owns the full rights to what it claims has been pilfered from Unix into Linux.

But what I suspect that it *CAN* show is that Unix code has been copied into a large amount of Linux. That's fine, so long as the provable owners of that Unix code don't have an issue with it being used in Linux.

Nor should great conclusions of "defeat" be drawn from Boies not showing up today. This ruling for IBM was a slam dunk. You don't want your prime attorney anywhere near the courtroom on the day of this ruling. IBM absolutely has the right to know which specific lines of code are being alleged to have been used without permission. The judge *HAD* to rule for IBM against SCO today. It was a no brainer.

We're now to the payoff point. SCO has to deliver. It's got 30 days.

We'll know soon enough whether they've got IBM by the big brass blues, or whether SCO will soon be radioactive ether.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Here is a background article of how Linux was hatched and how it is put together:

How Linus Torvalds became benevolent dictator of Planet Linux, the biggest collaborative project in history.