Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Map Kernow
Here's some "context" for you. This is from Matthew 19, King James Bible:
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Jesus is saying that forsaking everything for him is what really counts. Even your family.

This passage is a very stern rebuke of material posessions, and yet I never hear modern Christians speaking in these terms.

And yet they want me to condemn homos because of a letter Paul wrote. Jesus never even mentioned queers. Now do you understand why some people accuse fundamentalists of cherry-picking and hypocrisy?
22 posted on 12/10/2003 3:58:05 PM PST by Belial
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies ]


To: Belial
Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Jesus is saying that forsaking everything for him is what really counts. Even your family.

Uh-hunh. Nothing matters more than God. "And you shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." It's harder to do that if you're focused on material things (like your lover's flesh), but not impossible, right?

This passage is a very stern rebuke of material posessions, and yet I never hear modern Christians speaking in these terms.

Phooey. You don't hang around Christians much, do you? What makes you think Christians don't condemn our materialistic, sybaritic, wealth crazed modern society?

And yet they want me to condemn homos because of a letter Paul wrote. Jesus never even mentioned queers.

Belial, no one on your side ever seems to want to listen to Christians when they say that they "hate the sin but not the sinner." If you really think that Christianity is all about "condemning sinners," or that Jesus would have thought sodomy "no problem," or that Paul had no authority for his doctrinal pronouncements, then, guy, you don't understand Christianity, and you don't want to.

Now do you understand why some people accuse fundamentalists of cherry-picking and hypocrisy?

I will be accommodating and assure you that I have never believed, do not now believe, and will never believe that "fundamentalists" are incapable of "cherry-picking and hypocrisy"---they're sinners too, don't you get that?

If my first response to you was "emotional," I apologize. But if you please, recognize that you have been somewhat emotional too. Matthew 7:3 (and yes, that verse applies with even greater force to me).

30 posted on 12/10/2003 4:37:06 PM PST by Map Kernow (" 'Hate speech' is just 'speech liberals hate' ")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]

To: Belial
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

If you don't mind me turning this discussion from the polemical to the scholarly, while I approve of your use of the KJV, are you at all curious what the text was in the ancient languages, like Greek and Latin, that this passage was transmitted in originally?

Well, I was. And I grabbed my Greek Testament and Vulgate to look it up.

The word translated "hardly" in verse 23 is dyskolos in the Greek and difficile according to Jerome. That is, the sense is not "a rich man can hardly get into heaven," but more like "a rich man will get into (Gr. eiseleusetai, Latin intrabit) the kingdom of heaven with difficulty".

Similarly, the term "eye of the needle" (Gr. dia trematos raphidos, Latin per foramen acus) according to the exegeses I've read, does not mean what we think of as the five square millimeter hole in a needle, but the kind of traditional Middle Eastern entranceway into a home or a street that require entrants to stoop before they could pass it, so that, for example, some bad guy couldn't come in like gangbusters.

Again, not to say that Jesus was remarking that it would be easy for a rich man to get into heaven---of course he was saying just the opposite. But he also said "Apud Deum autem omnia possibilia sunt." With God all things are possible, even a rich man getting into heaven.

34 posted on 12/10/2003 5:18:24 PM PST by Map Kernow (" 'Hate speech' is just 'speech liberals hate' ")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson