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If Dean loses, will he quit? The Dean third party threat.
Slate ^ | 12/17/03 | Mickey Kaus

Posted on 12/17/2003 10:18:51 AM PST by bdeaner

If Dean Loses, Will He Quit?
The Dean third party threat.
By Mickey Kaus
Posted Tuesday, Dec. 16, 2003, at 4:43 PM PT

Several eminent emailers have suggested that Everett Ehrlich's prediction of party decline ignores the major U.S. deterrent to splinter-party formation--the combination of the Electoral College and the rule, in all but two states, that the candidate winning the most votes gets all that state's electors. It doesn't pay to be a third party, in this scheme, unless you can actually win a few states. (The tendency of such winner-take-all systems to produce two-party politics is sometimes called Duverger's Law.) ...

The short answer to this argument is, that's all true, but who or what will the two parties be? Surely it matters whether we have 1) a two party system in which the two parties are familiar institutions that carry over from election to election (e.g. Republicans and Democrats) or 2) a fluid two-party system in which the #2, or even #1 banner is up for grabs every election, to be captured by one of several competing self-started Internet-organized groups that may not even have existed the year before. If the latter is true, the Internet will still have 'ended parties as we know them.' The label "Democrat" will be a sort of title to be won in the start-from-scratch organizing wars. It won't come with an existing cadre of officials, or even necessarily with any ideology.

But there's no reason the two major party slots would even continue to be called "Democrat" and "Republican." Suppose John McCain ran as an independent in 2004 or 2008; he might win a few states and come in second in most others. The McCainiacs would then be the opposition party, and it might suddenly be the Democrats who are the third party looking in vain for a reason to stay alive. .... If McCain doesn't work for you, substitute Dean. (In a Dean vs. Gephardt vs. Bush race, is it clear Dean would finish third? Not to me.) I still think Ehrlich is onto something fairly big. ... (As my colleague Bob Wright notes in his book Nonzero, changes in information technology tend to be followed by big political/cultural shifts. It's no accident that the Reformation happened a few decades after Gutenberg. Suddenly, you could nail a few theses on a door and they'd be distributed across a continent in days. Now--to exaggerate for a moment--you can put up a Web site and fill out some Meetup.com forms, and you can have a party-like political organization in all 50 states in a few weeks. Who needs Terry McAuliffe?) ... 2:06 A.M.

If He Loses, Will He Quit? Alert reader B.B. points out at least one more implication of Everett Ehrlich's high-ramification analysis of party decline in the Internet era: What happens if Dean loses in the Democratic primary? As Ehrlich notes, Dean's essentially built an entire new party for himself on the Web ("his own lists, his own money, his own organization"). Suppose one of the establishment party types he denounces, like Gephardt, defeats him and captures the Democratic "brand name." Will Dean really just pack up and go home? Why should he? He can take his new personal portable party and keep on running, as an independent, the way John Anderson did back in 1980. His followers are fanatical enough (he could tack back to the left to keep them stoked) and the front-loading of the primary system gives him more time to make this switch and get on the ballot in enough states, no? He could argue that Gephardt will lose to Bush anyway, that it's more important to build a movement for the future, etc. And you thought Ralph Nader was a spoiler. ... What are Democrats to do? 1) Make Dean pledge right now that he'll support the Democratic nominee [see Update 'n Salvage below]; 2) If he's beaten in the primaries, offer him the vice-presidential slot. That might not be a bad idea anyway, given his fervent following. 3) Encourage a compensating breakaway spoiler candidacy on the right. [Reader D.H. nominates an embittered Trent Lott] ... Update: Reader "Kevin from Sacramento" writes that "Dean has stated, repeatedly, that he will not run as a third party candidate and he will support the Democratic nominee if that nominee is not him." Good point! (He does it in this October debate, more or less.) Salvage: But campaign promises have a way of changing when opportunities open up. Bill Clinton pledged he wouldn't run for president in 1992. Hillary's said she won't run, and nobody seems to quite believe her. It wouldn't be hard for Dean to come up with a reason to change his mind--especially if the Democratic nominee is pro-war--now that it's clear he has the power to mount a national campaign independent of the party. ... Make him promise again, now, when everyone's paying attention! ... More: At the very least, the unspoken threat that Dean might break his promise and launch a third party candidacy gives him lots of leverage at the convention, even if he doesn't win the nomination. ... 4:39 P.M.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; democrats; election; everettehrlich; howarddean; johnmccain; mickeykaus; president; primary; ralphnader; thirdparty
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I hadn't thought of this scenario before. With Dean as a third party candidate, the Rats would be royally screwed. Looks like they are screwed either way.
1 posted on 12/17/2003 10:18:52 AM PST by bdeaner
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To: bdeaner
Headline should read:
"If Dean loses, will he quit?"
2 posted on 12/17/2003 10:20:03 AM PST by bdeaner
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To: bdeaner
Maybe he'll quit and be quite quiet.
3 posted on 12/17/2003 10:20:29 AM PST by Consort
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To: bdeaner
He should quietly quite.
4 posted on 12/17/2003 10:21:24 AM PST by 1Old Pro (Madeline Halfbright claims we have OBL on ice ready for display before election??!)
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To: 1Old Pro
He's quite an idiot.
5 posted on 12/17/2003 10:22:00 AM PST by dirtboy (New Ben and Jerry's flavor - Howard Dean Swirl - no ice cream, just fruit at bottom)
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To: bdeaner
Perhaps he and buchanan could start their own party and run as co-presidents.
6 posted on 12/17/2003 10:23:39 AM PST by CWOJackson (President Bush is responsibile for cellulite...)
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To: bdeaner
I had not quit thought about this. Do you think he is series?
7 posted on 12/17/2003 10:24:51 AM PST by 11th Earl of Mar
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To: bdeaner
Dean is going to quite? This is Hugh!!! Wahta a maroon.
8 posted on 12/17/2003 10:27:01 AM PST by massadvj
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To: 11th Earl of Mar
It doesn't matter if Dean leaves for the Greens or stays a democrat. If he loses the nomination, his followers will not vote for Gephardt or Kerry. They will, like RFK's followers in 1968, simply stay home or vote for the Green candidate as a sour grapes maneuver.
9 posted on 12/17/2003 10:27:59 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Consort
Quite while your ahead.
10 posted on 12/17/2003 10:32:22 AM PST by Huck
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To: dighton; Lazamataz
Whiners never quite and quiters never whine.
11 posted on 12/17/2003 10:35:03 AM PST by Constitution Day (Iraqi blogger to President Bush: "The bones in the mass graves salute you, Avenger of the Bones.")
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To: bdeaner
a fluid two-party system in which the #2, or even #1 banner is up for grabs every election, to be captured by one of several competing self-started Internet-organized groups that may not even have existed the year before.

I'm sorry, but this is crap. There is nothing special about the Internet at all when it comes to politics, except that it makes information dissemination a bit easier. There is no reason whatsoever that Dean couldn't have accomplished what he did without using the Internet much at all. Besides, if anything, it was the Iraq war that made him the frontrunner, because it allowed him to tap into the steaming pile of far-left hatred that was stirred up by our major military success (a pile of hatred that makes up almost all of the Democratic Party base these days). If there hadn't been a war, Dean would be little more than an angrier Dennis Kucinich. Does anyone here seriously believe that Howard Dean became HOWARD DEAN because he made himself look cool to a bunch of semi-literate college students "cause he's online dude and the others aren't!"? Please.

By the way, anyone that's done any serious poking around on Dean's "Internet presence" has discovered that, in large measure, it doesn't exist. Yes, many mailing lists were created, many Meetup gatherings are constantly scheduled. But what you're never told is that 98.5% of those mailing lists are dormant, have less than ten subscribers each, or both; and that the vast majority of those Meetups have about five people show up, when anyone shows at all. (Anyone can create a "gathering" on the Meetup site. It doesn't mean a single person will actually sign up, much less show up, but you can be sure it will be counted in the Dean statistics regardless.) Even the emails and cell phone text messages from Dean HQ have slowed to a trickle. It was all a front to suck in donations. It's served its purpose and will now largely be abandoned as he focuses on winning Iowa and New Hampshire, where the voters expect to meet the candidates in person, not via a webcam.

12 posted on 12/17/2003 10:38:07 AM PST by Dont Mention the War
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To: bdeaner
Tuogh crowd, eh? ;^)
13 posted on 12/17/2003 10:39:02 AM PST by eureka! (Rats and Presstitutes lie--they have to in order to survive.....)
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To: eureka!
This is hugh....even series
14 posted on 12/17/2003 10:43:58 AM PST by spokeshave (TDIDS = The Dow is Driving Skyward = Tom Daschle is Deeply Saddened)
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To: spokeshave
vey series...
15 posted on 12/17/2003 10:44:52 AM PST by eureka! (Rats and Presstitutes lie--they have to in order to survive.....)
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To: bdeaner
He might quit, but I doubt he'll be quiet.
16 posted on 12/17/2003 10:46:14 AM PST by rintense
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To: bdeaner
If Dean loses the first three or four primaries, it will be quite difficult or him to win the nomination. If he loses six he is finished. Both parties design their primaries this way, specifically to keep maverick independent candidates out, and candidates who favor the party elite in. That is why this Dean thing is so surprising. His is a solely grassroots phenomenon, which both parties have tried to stamp out.

It might be, as another poster pointed out, the Democrats Goldwater. He may lose, but will become the face of the Democrat Party within 10 years.
17 posted on 12/17/2003 10:47:03 AM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: eureka!
Tuogh crowd, eh? ;^)

Quite. ;^)
18 posted on 12/17/2003 10:47:55 AM PST by bdeaner
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To: massadvj
quite it or i'm gonna loose it.
19 posted on 12/17/2003 10:48:27 AM PST by RckyRaCoCo
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To: eureka!
Give this pore guy a brak. Everyone misspels a werd or to.
20 posted on 12/17/2003 10:49:45 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Dean People Suck!)
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