God in Our Heritage (Why the Pledge of Allegiance is constitutional)

The Wall Street Journal ^ | Thursday, December 18, 2003 | GREG ABBOTT

[presidio9]

Half a century after Congress added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, the Supreme Court is poised to consider whether those words make it impermissible for children to recite the Pledge in our nation's public schools. Michael Newdow, the man at the center of the case now before the court, contends that requiring students to say the words "under God" unconstitutionally establishes religion. An overwhelming majority of others, including the attorneys-general of all 50 states, strongly disagree.

[MineralMan]

"Here is the Oath of Office taken by our Congressmen as they are sworn in to their elected office:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter:
So help me God. "

Sorry to pop your balloon, but the "So help me God" part of that is optional. Anyone who affirms their oath need not say it. This applies to all oaths of office and other oaths taken in the United States of America.

[xzins]

If you think the nation is under God, then it's an elevation of the discussion.

If you think the nation has a "history of believing it's under God," then you wouldn't think it an elevation of the discussion.

[Capitalism2003]

For another opinion on the pledge... (warning...do not read if you have a high blood pressure) unbelievable...

[exmarine]

This is about the tryanny of the minority. The right of one single atheist to "not be offended" at the expense of the rights of the majority. The U.S. Constitution was designed to give equal protection under the law. Newdow's rights aren't violated in any way as he is not being forced to do or listen or participate in anything, however, the Christian majority's rights are being violated as the secular humanists want to force their religion on all of America!

It's time to fight! It's time to have MASS ACTS OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. What can those morons in black robes do if 20 million people continue to recite the pledge with "under God"? Nothing, that's what!

[presidio9]

Just lucky, I guess.

Amazingly, the US survived until 2001 without a Department of Homeland Security...

[exmarine]

Sorry to pop your balloon, but the "So help me God" part of that is optional. Anyone who affirms their oath need not say it. This applies to all oaths of office and other oaths taken in the United States of America.

Our founders wrote that oaths are worthless unless they are sworn to God. Who are you swearing to...yourself? Removal of "so help me God" is a recent evolution.

Our founders were overwhelmingly Christian and our founding documents (Constitution and Decl. of Indep.) are imbued with Christian principles from Christian thinkers such as John Locke, Baron de Montesquieu, William Blackstone, Samuel Rutherford, Hugo Grotius, Samuel de Puffendorf, and many others. Unlike our leaders of today, our founders were extremely well educated and well-read, especially on history and the lessons to be learned from it. The Christian heritage of American CANNOT BE DENIED with any credulity.

[exmarine]

I will never understand why conservatives are so in love with a statist credo written by a pinko (really, you can look it up).

Ultimately, this isn't about the pledge. It's about the culture war that is raging in America between the secular humanist and the judeo-Christian worldviews. It's about preserving our Christian heritage, and our religious freedomes under the Free Exercise Clause of the U.S. Constitution. It's about fighting against bigots who are trying to silence and marginalize Christians in our schools and government. I'm up for the fight.

[exmarine]

Furthermore, Bush put his hand on a bible when he took the oath - so did Clinton. The Supreme Court and Congress both invoke God before EVERY SESSION. If SCOTUS strikes down the pledge, they had better strike down their own hypocrisy.

[MineralMan]

"Sorry to pop your balloon, but the "So help me God" part of that is optional. Anyone who affirms their oath need not say it. This applies to all oaths of office and other oaths taken in the United States of America.
Our founders wrote that oaths are worthless unless they are sworn to God. Who are you swearing to...yourself? Removal of "so help me God" is a recent evolution."

Our founders also wrote that no religious test shall be applied to any holder of an office in this nation. The affirmation of an oath is provided for in the body of the Constitution.

Some Christian denominations hold that no oath should ever be taking, using the name of God. They base this on Jesus' own words in Matthew.

No matter what the oath may be, you can never be required to take that oath in the name of a deity. That is the law, and it is written in our Constitution that an affirmation is all that is required.

As an atheist, I have affirmed many oaths in my life. I affirmed my oath when I entered the USAF in 1965. I affirmed my oath when I served on my local grand jury in the 1970s for a year. I have affirmed my oath as a juror in three criminal trials. I have affirmed my oath when testifying in court.

I affirm my oath upon my honor, something I take extremely seriously.

I have no problem with anyone taking an oath in the name of the deity they worship. That is their option. Under our Constitution, however, any citizen may simply affirm an oath, however, in any circumstances.

You may not like that, but there it is. I have never betrayed any oath I have affirmed, and never will. I have, however, know those who swore to God that they would not lie in court, yet who have lied blatantly. I give you Clinton as an example.

You may wish that all had to swear in some deity's name, but it simply is not the case. You may question my sincerity in an oath, but that's beside the point. I affirm oaths upon my honor, and will always do so. My history is that I have never violated an oath.

[MineralMan]

"Furthermore, Bush put his hand on a bible when he took the oath - so did Clinton. "

That was his option. He could also have, as President Taylor did, simply affirmed his oath. It's in the Constitution. I suggest a reading of that document.

[exmarine]

Oh, I've read it, and I've also read the founders' writings. I suggest you read what the founders wrote about oaths. An oath to oneself isn't an oath at all. You could also read what they wrote about the First Amendment, or you could read the congressional debates on that amendment in the fall of 1789 - strangely, the terms "separation of church and state" is not invoked one time in that 3 month long debate.

[exmarine]

I never said you HAD TO swear an oath by God. See, we Christians do not try to force people to do things like you atheists. I said the founders believed in it which is undeniable.

[highlander_UW]

Without both aspects having equal weight, government could establish and demand a particular "religion" be practiced.

And the religion that is being established is called secular humanism.

[exmarine]

I affirm oaths upon my honor, and will always do so.

An atheist with honor? If there is no god, it can't be wrong to lie or be dishonorable. If there is no god, all things are ultimately permissible.

[MineralMan]

"An atheist with honor? If there is no god, it can't be wrong to lie or be dishonorable. If there is no god, all things are ultimately permissible."

Indeed. There is nothing more important to me than my honor. If I give you my word, based on my honor, you may be absolutely certain that I will do what say.

Apparently that honor is sufficient for me to have served in our military, to have held a security clearance of the highest possible nature, and to have never violated any oath I have taken.

Do you not know of Christians who have violated an oath they have taken? I certainly do. It is not the oath that guarantees loyalty, it is the honor of the person taking it.

I needn't have a deity to honor my oaths.

[steve-b]

Furthermore, Bush put his hand on a bible when he took the oath - so did Clinton.

I am reminded of that "Knowing When To Stop Is A Good Thing" commercial.

[steve-b]

"Furthermore, Bush put his hand on a bible when he took the oath - so did Clinton. "
That was his option. He could also have, as President Taylor did, simply affirmed his oath. It's in the Constitution. I suggest a reading of that document.

In any case (as I obliquely noted in my previous message), an oath made by someone like Clinton would be worthless if he took it in the name of every god, demigod, spirit, or other supernatural entity ever conceived by the mind of man.

[ContemptofCourt]

"Our founders were overwhelmingly slave owners and our founding documents (Constitution and Decl. of Indep.) are imbued with slave owning principles from Christian thinkers such as John Locke, Baron de Montesquieu, William Blackstone, Samuel Rutherford, Hugo Grotius, Samuel de Puffendorf, and many others. Unlike our leaders of today, our founders were extremely well educated and well-read, especially on history and the lessons to be learned from it. The slave owning heritage of American CANNOT BE DENIED with any credulity.

Thanks for playing.

[ContemptofCourt]

How about "The ORIGINAL Pledge of Allegiance". Just a thought.

[exmarine]

"Our founders were overwhelmingly slave owners and our founding documents (Constitution and Decl. of Indep.) are imbued with slave owning principles from Christian thinkers such as John Locke, Baron de Montesquieu, William Blackstone, Samuel Rutherford, Hugo Grotius, Samuel de Puffendorf, and many others. Unlike our leaders of today, our founders were extremely well educated and well-read, especially on history and the lessons to be learned from it. The slave owning heritage of American CANNOT BE DENIED with any credulity.

Spoken like a true dumb-down, public-edcuated, anti-Christian bigot. Every man has his shortcomings - no one is perfect, but our founders had values, unlike the secular humanists of today. It is because of them that you live in a free country (at least it used to be free), it is because of Christianity that you have freedom.

A few of the founders believed in slavery - it was a blind spot. It was a mistake to defer this issue at the Constitutional Convention, no doubt. But people like you want to DEMONIZE these men for their mistake, while ignoring the fact that they gave you your freedom, while ignoring that fact that it was white Christian men who are responsible for freeing the slaves (beginning with Wilberforce in the UK and ending with the Christian abolition movement in the USA)!

Now, either you are ignorant of history or you hate our country and its heritage. Which is it? Let's play some more so I can expose your bigotry and ignorance!