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Is the Death Penalty Morally Equal to Abortion? Bishops Preach Politics Rather than Gospel Truth
CCI NEWS SERVICE ^ | 12/16/2003 | Dr. Brian Kopp

Posted on 12/18/2003 10:38:18 AM PST by ckca

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To: madprof98
Two questions:

Are you a Catholic?

Are you against the death penalty?
51 posted on 12/18/2003 2:15:38 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: ThePythonicCow
Wow. That's it. I've never heard it like that before--

"Death penalty is wrong because it is a moral judgment."
"Abortion is okay because it isn't a moral judgment."

Totally explains it. And really creeps the $#it outta me.
52 posted on 12/18/2003 2:19:07 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: ckca
I am against the death penalty, but not because I am against killing people that desperately need it. In short, the State can't be trusted with the power to kill its citizens, as eventually it WILL be used as a tool by some unsavory politician. On the other hand, I am a-okay with self-defense and the whole concept of justifiable homicide by private citizens. Just not government agents.

Or to put it another way, I would never agree to give the government a power that I wouldn't agree to give to Hillary Clinton. Hitler creatively applied many laws that had been put into place by previous administrations with the best of intentions because no one thought someone like Hitler would end up in power to abuse them. You never know what bizarre political circumstance the future holds; if future history was predictable, history wouldn't be as interesting as it is.

53 posted on 12/18/2003 2:29:58 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Javelina
You said: "Does anyone know if the Bible actually dilineates between a "murder" and a "killing." In other words, what differentiates the two and makes one always wrong (murder) and one wrong except in certain circumstances(killing)?"

The Bible, specifically the law of Moses, provided for the death penalty for murder. Obviously the execution of a murderer was not considered murder itself.
54 posted on 12/18/2003 2:37:41 PM PST by Lucas McCain
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

To: ckca
thanks for the ping. very good piece..
56 posted on 12/18/2003 2:48:42 PM PST by .45MAN
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To: Javelina
Revenge is morally right. If it were not, how could a righteous God declare: "Vengeance is mine"? But because it is fraught with such egregious abuse, He has taken the right of revenge out of the hands of the individual and made it the duty of the state (Romans 13: 1-4). And even though the state can sometimes abuse or misuse that duty/right, Jesus recognized its validity. When dragged before Pilate for interrogation, Pilate asked Him: "Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?” Jesus made no effort to deny that Pilate had the authority to execute criminals but reminded him that the authority he had was given to him from God (John 19:10-11).
Any state that doesn't practice capital punishment is failing to fulfill its most fundamental God-given purpose.
57 posted on 12/18/2003 2:55:04 PM PST by Lucas McCain
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To: ckca
Dear Polycarp Wherever You Are,

Good article.


sitetest
58 posted on 12/18/2003 3:32:58 PM PST by sitetest (Though I hope he goes to Heaven, the murderer must nonetheless be executed.)
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To: sinkspur
Dear sinkspur,

"Catholics, therefore, can take either side, morally."

Not exactly. No Catholic may believe or teach that capital punishment is intrinsically evil. One may believe that at the present time, in some societies, it is no longer necessary to protect the innocent.

Catholics may differ on the prudential questions surrounding the death penalty.

But a Catholic may not believe the death penalty is, per se, wrong.


sitetest
59 posted on 12/18/2003 3:41:51 PM PST by sitetest
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To: Lucas McCain
Revenge is morally right. If it were not, how could a righteous God declare: "Vengeance is mine"?

Meaning "Mine," not yours.
60 posted on 12/18/2003 3:44:07 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: sitetest
But a Catholic may not believe the death penalty is, per se, wrong.

LOL! Thanks for that.

61 posted on 12/18/2003 3:45:13 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sitetest
But a Catholic may not believe the death penalty is, per se, wrong.

In your world, where the pope isn't even Catholic enough.

62 posted on 12/18/2003 6:05:35 PM PST by madprof98
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To: stands2reason
All faithful Catholics today oppose the death penalty. See this site, which is obviously not "Catholic" enough for the cafeteria crowd here but which accurately reflects the teachings of the Holy Father and the Holy Catholic Church--not to mention the gospel of Jesus Christ.
63 posted on 12/18/2003 6:14:29 PM PST by madprof98
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To: Maximilian
What the Pope says is what the Roman Catholic Church is.

You might disagree--and I might disagree--but we don't get to interpret what Catholicism is. That, in the Catholic church, is up to the Pope. Regardless of what Aquinas, Luther, or Jesus said.

I'm NOT saying the Roman Catholic church isn't Christian, merely that the Pope is its leader on earth and if you want to be Catholic that's who you follow unquestioningly. No fair pretending to be Catholic and acting like you get to vote on it or something.
64 posted on 12/18/2003 6:33:15 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (When laws are regularly flouted, respect of the law and law enforcement diminishes correspondingly.)
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To: ckca
Bumping this thread. Excellent.
65 posted on 12/18/2003 6:39:39 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ckca
Note the similar line of reasoning on the part of leftish leaning "Catholics" on the topic of abortion.
66 posted on 12/18/2003 6:43:37 PM PST by madprof98
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To: ckca
Well I'm glad to hear she was excommunicated, but you'd never know by the way the liberal media fawns over everything she says.
67 posted on 12/18/2003 8:38:01 PM PST by Frank_2001
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To: LibertarianInExile
What the Pope says is what the Roman Catholic Church is. You might disagree--and I might disagree--but we don't get to interpret what Catholicism is.

Obviously you're not Catholic. What you describe is just not the case. In some sense the pope has no more ability to decide what is Catholic than you or I. In fact, he is even more bound to uphold the constant teaching of his predecessors because he takes an oath to faithfully hand down what he has received and to change nothing of the faith.

the Pope is its leader on earth and if you want to be Catholic that's who you follow unquestioningly.

This is a common misunderstanding about the Catholic faith. No one is required to follow the pope "unquestioningly." Normally that is a safe thing to do, even if it's not required, but there have been other historical circumstances like our own in which it has been necessary to cling to the Catholic faith when the pope went astray. His personal opinions in particular, for example on the death penalty, have no obligatory force whatsoever.

68 posted on 12/18/2003 8:46:52 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The Pope is Christ's representative on Earth for Catholics, and whether you want to say he's bound or not by Catholic past doctrine, he is the one who decides what he is bound by. You don't get to pretend otherwise because you disagree with him if you're a true Catholic without actually turning from the Church. You're simply wrong.

From the catholic.org online Catholic Catechism glossary:

POPE: The successor of St. Peter as Bishop of Rome and Supreme Pontiff of the universal Catholic Church. The pope exercises a primacy of authority as Vicar of Christ and shepherd of the whole Church; he receives the divine assistance promised by Christ to the Church when he defines infallibly a doctrine of faith or morals (880-882). See Papacy.

PAPACY: The supreme jurisdiction and ministry of the pope as shepherd of the whole Church. As successor of St. Peter, and therefore Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ, the pope is the perpetual and visible principle of unity in faith and communion in the Church (882). See Pope.

From the Vatican's web site, Catechism of the Catholic Church, PART ONE, SECTION TWO, CHAPTER THREE, ARTICLE 9, Paragraph 4. Christ's Faithful - Hierarchy, Laity, Consecrated Life:

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

You want to pretend you can doubt THE representative of Christ on Earth, go ahead. But don't pretend you're a Roman Catholic. Obviously, whatever religion YOU happen to be, you talk out of your ass a lot, as proven by your prior post. Read a Baltimore Catechism once in a while. You might learn something about the faith. If you are Catholic, maybe you should convert to some Protestant sect so you get to cherrypick dogma you like in the event you disagree with church teaching, but the Catholic Church doesn't let you make decisions on matters of faith, the Pope does. If the Pope says it's a matter of faith that Catholics must protest the death penalty or abortion or dogwalking, IT IS.
69 posted on 12/18/2003 9:19:40 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (When laws are regularly flouted, respect of the law and law enforcement diminishes correspondingly.)
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To: Javelina
The Ten Commandments, when read in the original Hebrew/Aramaic are quite specific. This specificity was lost in the translation to other languages, and contributes to the confusion...

the infowarrior

70 posted on 12/18/2003 9:43:44 PM PST by infowarrior (TANSTAAFL)
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To: madprof98
Thanks, but you didn't answer my question....
71 posted on 12/18/2003 9:52:26 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: madprof98
It seems to that if anything not clear it is the teaching of the Church on the death penalty.
72 posted on 12/18/2003 10:07:21 PM PST by RobbyS (XP)
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To: Lucas McCain
Anyone who cannot differentiate morally between the killing of an innocent baby and the execution of a heinous criminal has his moral head up his a$$. The same God who condemned the murder of the innocent mandated the execution of murderers.

The sanctity of life is upheld by prohibiting abortion. It is also upheld by the practice of capital punishment.

(Psa 139:13 KJV) For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.(Psa 139:14 KJV) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.(Psa 139:15 KJV) My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.(Psa 139:16 KJV) Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

(Luke 1:39 KJV) And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; (Luke 1:40 KJV) And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. (Luke 1:41 KJV) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: (Luke 1:42 KJV) And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.(Luke 1:43 KJV) And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?(Luke 1:44 KJV) For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

(Psa 106:37 KJV) "Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,(Psa 106:38 KJV) And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. (Psa 106:39 KJV) Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. (Psa 106:40 KJV) Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance."

(Gen 9:6 KJV) "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

(Num 35:31 KJV) "Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. (Num 35:32 KJV) And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest. (Num 35:33 KJV) So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

The Pope and RCC bishops are right on abortion because they agree with Scripture on this issue, and they are wrong on capital punishment because they contradict Scripture on that issue.
73 posted on 12/18/2003 10:35:42 PM PST by razorbak
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To: stands2reason
Thanks for the note of appreciation.
74 posted on 12/18/2003 10:42:55 PM PST by ThePythonicCow (Mooo !!!!)
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To: ckca
Bump (so I can enter the fray later)
75 posted on 12/19/2003 12:10:01 AM PST by Gil4
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To: ckca
Did I read the article? HEII no! The entire question is ludicrous.
76 posted on 12/19/2003 12:28:30 AM PST by Indie (Have you bought more ammo today?)
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To: ckca; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...
If you hear from the good Doc, wish him a Merry Christmas please.
77 posted on 12/19/2003 12:52:03 AM PST by narses (If you want OFF or ON my Ping list, please email me.)
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To: stands2reason
And the reason they think Moral Judgments are Wrong is that they recognize the power of such judgments, and they fear that power.

If you must sail the oceans in boats with no rudders, you learn that the greatest disasters happen to the most powerful boats. If all boats are rudderless, then the only safe boat is the child's boat in a bathtub.

Without faith in the guidance of a higher power, they are without a rudder.

Hence they fear power. They fear the military, they fear America, they fear George W Bush, they fear capitalism and industry, they fear freedom, they fear Moral Judgment, and they fear Faith itself, the one thing that would enpower them and enable them to overcome their fear. And for them, as for you and me, hatred, anger and loathing are the usual emotions that follow upon and cover up fear.

Without knowledge of good and evil and lacking the rudder of faith, all things powerful become all things dangerous. And since "safe" versus "risky" is their substitute for Good versus Evil, anything that is powerful is Bad.

Hitler and Bush become indistinguishable.

The Leftists are just as intelligent and learned as us, their emotions just as primal as ours, and their bodies just as strong. The critical difference is that they have lost their spirit.

78 posted on 12/19/2003 1:29:45 AM PST by ThePythonicCow (Mooo !!!!)
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To: ThePythonicCow
They have no use for moral/ethical distinctions because then they'd have to deal with the evil within. They are beyond self-examination. All that they think they need is a vague "do- gooder" attitude while they ignore the way they really treat others.

Voting for social welfare nets is the extent of their "goodness." That's all they have to do to prove to the world (and themselves) that they "care." They don't want to take any longer dealing with their own morality than it takes to pull that "D" lever.

Fear, and avoidance and denial to themselves.

Have you ever read any books by Oliver Sacks? He's a neurologist who has chronicled the most interesting case studies of brain injuries in the US. (He wrote "Awakenings"--Robin Williams played him in the movie) What I found particularly interesting is that a certain number of his patients were sometimes particularly exasperating to deal with because the nature of their brain injuries left them completely unaware that they were injured. While they are obviously physiological causes of denial, it was interesting to see the way their minds worked.

If you do choose to read him, I recommend "The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat" to start. Each chapter is a different patient, each one fascinating in his own way. You should be able to find them in the science section of your library.

79 posted on 12/19/2003 2:30:21 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: stands2reason
I quite agree. See my FR home page ThePythonicCow, such as the items about rat poop and do-gooders.

And yes, Rats are completely unaware that they [are] injured.

Your analogy with brain injuries is apt. I haven't read Sacks, though his books look familiar. At one point, I spent some time with such brain and mind studies. I tended more toward the conceptual -- Sacks appears to be more anecdotal in his presentation than I would have preferred.

Good stuff, however you choose to come at it.

80 posted on 12/19/2003 2:49:20 AM PST by ThePythonicCow (Mooo !!!!)
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To: madprof98
Dear madprof98,

In my world, the pope shows us what it is to be Catholic.

But the pope has not taught that the death penalty is, per se, wrong. If that is your understanding of Catholic teaching, you need a little remedial work.


sitetest
81 posted on 12/19/2003 5:22:07 AM PST by sitetest
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Comment #82 Removed by Moderator

To: vigilo
"Who are the innocent? Aren't we all born with original sin? What good is a "trial" when you're condemned from inception to be guilty?"

Just because we are born with an itch for sin doesn't mean we have acted on that itch. How can an unborn child commit a sin?

83 posted on 12/19/2003 6:15:55 AM PST by redhead (Les Français sont des singes de capitulation qui mangent du fromage.)
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Comment #84 Removed by Moderator

Comment #85 Removed by Moderator

To: Jumper
Also, the death penalty is condoned by God, the author of morality. That being the case, the death penalty can not be immoral.
86 posted on 12/19/2003 6:50:15 AM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: ckca; Polycarp
Never nice piece of work. I'm pinging this for later reading/distribution.

Thanks!
87 posted on 12/19/2003 7:08:15 AM PST by FormerLib (We'll fight the good fight until the very end!)
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To: LibertarianInExile
Not exactly, though the overall sentiment you state is correct. The Pope is the leader of the Roman Church, however, he is unable to overturn centuries of Church doctrine, he can just more clearly focus doctrine. If the Pope were to say Abortion is ok, the Church would not. I think that is a needed distinction to make.
88 posted on 12/19/2003 7:15:34 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: LibertarianInExile
For Infallibility to be used, it must be proclaimed, this Pope, has not proclaimed his teachings on the death penalty Ex Cathedra, or infallible. That is a distinction that has to be made. Yes, the Pope can ultimately bind or loose things as given to him by Christ through Peter in Matthew, but he has to proclaim that that is what he is doing, otherwise it is his opinion and not infallible. He has not proclaimed the Death Penalty in a manner in accordance with Catechism 891.
89 posted on 12/19/2003 7:18:36 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: LibertarianInExile
And I will admit, my own feelings on the death penalty are quite conflicted. But I also firmly believe that the theological justification for the current Church stance on the death penalty is highly suspect. The current opposistion to the Death Penalty (though not condemnation) lies with the need for the State to defend itself. I Think that is a dangerous primary reason to either have or not have the death penalty. It is also a big departure for the past on the Death penalty, with focused on the retributive side of the Death Penalty. To build support or opposistion completely on Defense of the State is dangerous, because one could argue that other things are necessary to protect the state even if they are morally evil. Just a thought.
90 posted on 12/19/2003 7:32:21 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
"Also, the death penalty is condoned by God, the author of morality."

How do you come to that conclusion?

What is wrong with lifetime incarceration? If we as Christians truly believe in God's Omnimpotence, then how can we not allow Him to be the final arbiter of a man's earthly existence.

If a man sits on death Row and is set to be executed on June 15th and so it follows, how do we know it was not God's arbitrary will to reach down and touch this man's heart and save his eternal soul on June 16th!!! We, as mere humans took that out of God's hands.

And lest anyone take me to task for this conclusion, I ask that you recall the story of Saul's conversion.
91 posted on 12/19/2003 7:33:17 AM PST by Prolifeconservative (If there is another terrorist attack, the womb is a very unsafe place to hide.)
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To: PISANO
No one is fond of taking responsibility for his actions, but consider how much you'd have to hate free will to come up with a political platform that advocates killing unborn babies but not convicted murderers...... A callous pragmatist might favor abortion and capital punishment.... A devout Christian would sanction neither.... But it takes years of therapy to arrive at the Liberal view.........

PJ O'Rourke
92 posted on 12/19/2003 7:37:09 AM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: HenryLeeII
Well, first of all, abortion is performed on an innocent, unborn child, whereas the death penalty is applied against an adult with free will who has committed a heinous crime.

The Bible says man kind is born into sin. Aborted infants are not yet born into sin, therefore without sin, or sin free.
The criminals are not only born into sin, but chose through their own free will to commit the worst of sin.

93 posted on 12/19/2003 8:08:32 AM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: Javelina
Does anyone know if the Bible actually dilineates between a "murder" and a "killing." In other words, what differentiates the two and makes one always wrong (murder) and one wrong except in certain circumstances(killing)?

The Bible addresses in much detail the differences between cold-blooded murder, manslaughter, revenge killing, capital punishment, killing in self-defense, killing as part of your duties (e.g. soldiers killing in combat), etc.

Murder is punishable by death. Manslaughter is not. Revenge killing is wrong. Capital punishment is not. Killing in self-defense is justified. Soldiers killing combatants is justifiable, too (it's an expanded form of self-defense, because soldiers are defending themselves, their platoons, their country. It is not OK for soldiers to abuse their positions for their own selfish gain, though. The Bible forbids them to rape, pillage, and deliberately kill innocents).

I wish I could supply you with verses, but can't off the top of my head. If you do research it, you will find ample verses in the Bible that support what I've said.

The Bible does not specifically use the word abortion that I'm aware of, but does address the unborn. A child in the womb is regarded as a miracle, a wonder, and as a person that God already knows and loves.

I don't see how anyone who reads the Bible can honestly believe that God would condone killing unborn children. Everything that God says about how we should treat one another (do unto others as you would have done unto you, love thy neighbor as thyself, etc.) tells me that God would view abortion as a terrible, terrible sin.

94 posted on 12/19/2003 8:25:32 AM PST by schmelvin
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To: Momus
"Who are the innocent? Aren't we all born with original sin? What good is a "trial" when you're condemned from inception to be guilty?"

Depends on what you mean by 'born with original sin'. A child is born with the tendency to sin, but I doubt it has already sinned. We aren't 'guilty' just for being born, but for the sins we have committed.

Of course, I realize there are those who think a baby who dies cannot go to heaven if it wasn't baptised. I don't see support for that view in scripture, and it sure negates the view of a loving, compassionate, merciful and just God.

95 posted on 12/19/2003 8:29:27 AM PST by MEGoody
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To: LibertarianInExile
"That, in the Catholic church, is up to the Pope. Regardless of what Aquinas, Luther, or Jesus said."

Regardless of what Jesus said???

Oh, my.

96 posted on 12/19/2003 8:31:43 AM PST by MEGoody
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Comment #97 Removed by Moderator

To: Prolifeconservative
"If we as Christians truly believe in God's Omnimpotence, then how can we not allow Him to be the final arbiter of a man's earthly existence."

He is. And He instituted the death penalty. Life for life.

Of course, we as individuals aren't to carry that out. We are to turn the other cheek. But government has a different role than the individual

98 posted on 12/19/2003 8:33:57 AM PST by MEGoody
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To: MEGoody
Check out the 10 Commandments!
99 posted on 12/19/2003 8:42:16 AM PST by Prolifeconservative (If there is another terrorist attack, the womb is a very unsafe place to hide.)
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To: MEGoody
Of course, we as individuals aren't to carry that out. We are to turn the other cheek. But government has a different role than the individual

How odd it was for Christ to have ordered individual Christians to turn the other cheek but then to allow those very same Christians to do the exact opposite when they act as agents of the state. I understand this odd distinction comes from Thomas Aquinas, but he was wrong on other life-issues as well.

100 posted on 12/19/2003 8:43:11 AM PST by madprof98
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