Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms
NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 761 next last
This is a new one on me...sounds pretty aggressive on the LDS' part. Leave people alone...even after they're dead, IMO.
1 posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:41 AM PST by Pharmboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
They've done it to a bunch of our dead relatives.
2 posted on 12/21/2003 4:43:36 AM PST by mewzilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mewzilla
Well, perhaps we can offer them posthumous circumcision...
3 posted on 12/21/2003 4:45:40 AM PST by Pharmboy (History's greatest agent for democracy: The US Armed Forces)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Such a practice is not biblical. But I'm not sure that has stopped the LDS in the past.
4 posted on 12/21/2003 4:54:52 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mewzilla
According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife.

So, what's the problem? Couldn't Jews give dead Mormons the same opportunity to convert to Judism in the afterlife?

Don't Chicago ward bosses already convert dead Republicans to Democrats in the afterlife and cast ballots for them. Now, that is a problem.

5 posted on 12/21/2003 4:56:51 AM PST by Vigilanteman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
I'd think there were better things to get upset about. If you believe the practice is kooky and illegitimate, how does it affect you or your ancestors if Mormons SAY it has some effect on your ancestors. You know the truth. How can it have any negative effect anyway? Better to get upset that living spokesmen for your people are liberals!
6 posted on 12/21/2003 4:59:24 AM PST by formercalifornian (Daschle who?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
"Well, perhaps we can offer them posthumous circumcision..."

Oy vey!

7 posted on 12/21/2003 5:03:25 AM PST by jocon307 (The dems don't get it, the American people do!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Readers of this thread are
permanently and irrevocably redeemed.
(void in the District of Columbia)
8 posted on 12/21/2003 5:38:23 AM PST by greasepaint
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
It has to do with their beliefs about what happens after death. Here is one link: http://www.catholic.com/library/Mormonism_Baptism_for_the_Dead.asp This is a link to info on Mormonism: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/list.shtml This last site is really a good place to explore. I'm not a Mormon and most of their doctrine is foreign to me. This site was very helpful to me in understanding their religion and how it's different from what I think of as Christianity.
9 posted on 12/21/2003 5:45:07 AM PST by airedale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: anniegetyourgun
"Such a practice is not biblical. But I'm not sure that has stopped the LDS in the past."

are the LDS on LSD?

10 posted on 12/21/2003 5:48:32 AM PST by dadokane (Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts. HATE OK.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: airedale
The Mormons can believe whatever they want. Their "baptising" me after my expiration date will have NO EFFECT on either me or my immortal soul. Wotta waste of time!!
11 posted on 12/21/2003 5:50:08 AM PST by szweig
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Hold the phone. If the Jews don't believe in Jesus then why do they give a hoot what goes on in the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints? I don't get this.
12 posted on 12/21/2003 5:50:40 AM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Vigilanteman
Don't Chicago ward bosses already convert dead Republicans to Democrats in the afterlife and cast ballots for them.

LOL!

13 posted on 12/21/2003 5:51:48 AM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: formercalifornian
If you can read my past posts on THAT subject, you would indeed see that I have railed against my co-religionists unfailingly. I have said, for instance, that Allan Dershowitz has created more Jew-hatred than he has ever squelched--and the same goes for Chuckie Schumer, Barbra Streisand and the entire mailing list of the ACLU.

AS a matter of fact, I have gotten myself in trouble with the "Jews are always right crowd" here at FR. So before you accuse, know your facts.

Second, as someone who does NOT believe in the afterlife, the whole issue is bogus to me; however, it is still--IMO--obnoxious and presumptuous since there are Jews who believe in this stuff.

Let's say that you're a religious Methodist, and some rabbi comes along and says that he now converted a dead relative of yours to Judaism: is that ok with you?

14 posted on 12/21/2003 6:12:27 AM PST by Pharmboy (History's greatest agent for democracy: The US Armed Forces)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Posthumous acts of ANY kind can only be done by and for those still living ; does anyone seriously think the awarding of medals or baptisms can affect the dead person?

I can understand the idea of prayer for the dead in which one asks for God's mercy on the deceased . For all the good that many Mormons do, I am afraid they are followers of a clever cult leader who sprinkled enough Truth in his fantasy to confound and confuse many.

15 posted on 12/21/2003 6:24:21 AM PST by hoosierham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: formercalifornian
I agree 100%.
16 posted on 12/21/2003 6:33:41 AM PST by ItisaReligionofPeace (I'm from the government and I'm here to help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Wait until the Muslims hear about this and convert all the victims of 9/11 to Islam. Then they ramp up their jihad against America for killing 3000 Muslims.
17 posted on 12/21/2003 6:37:23 AM PST by Alouette ("Who is for the LORD, come with me!" -- Mattisyahu ben Yohanon, father of Judah Maccabee)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
Mormons have been baptised for the dead for about a century now, this is not new news.

In the Bible, anyone who got baptised was alive, and they chose to do it the selves, doing it for someone is a foolish practice that has no merit for either person.
18 posted on 12/21/2003 6:47:35 AM PST by RaceBannon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ItisaReligionofPeace
Please see my post 14. If the shoe were on the other foot, you would have no problem?
19 posted on 12/21/2003 6:57:50 AM PST by Pharmboy (History's greatest agent for democracy: The US Armed Forces)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy
I don't think they should be so concerned. If one does not adhere to the Mormon rules, they shouldn't have to worry about a process like this. Perhaps the Jews are worried about the NAMES of their loved ones and ancestors being involved in this, which would be a somewhat different matter. But on the whole, as an ex-Mormon, I'd say this ceremony has NO EFFECT on the status of any deceased person's soul, no matter what their chosen religion. I've seen articles about this before, but I don't think the Jews need to worry about this. Nothing is "happening" to the souls or even the memories of their loved ones and relatives. Once you die, you're judged. All the "baptism" in the world isn't going to change whatever happened to your soul at that moment. "For it is given to men to die once, then comes the judgment..." (I don't have the reference for this, but I believe Jesus said it.)
20 posted on 12/21/2003 7:00:55 AM PST by redhead (Les Français sont des singes de capitulation qui mangent du fromage.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 761 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson