Skip to comments.
Safire: Job and Dean
The New York Times ^
| 01/05/04
| William Safire
Posted on 01/04/2004 8:01:57 PM PST by Pokey78
click here to read article
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-20, 21-40, 41-54 next last
1
posted on
01/04/2004 8:01:57 PM PST
by
Pokey78
To: Pokey78
Dean is under pressure and has begged Clintleone to call his goons off.
2
posted on
01/04/2004 8:04:32 PM PST
by
goldstategop
(In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
To: All
Rank |
Location |
Receipts |
Donors/Avg |
Freepers/Avg |
Monthlies |
4 |
New York |
666.00
|
17
|
39.18
|
669
|
1.00
|
308.00
|
19
|
Thanks for donating to Free Republic!
Move your locale up the leaderboard!
3
posted on
01/04/2004 8:06:19 PM PST
by
Support Free Republic
(If Woody had gone straight to the police, this would never have happened!)
To: Pokey78
I understand that Job occurs near the end or at the end of the Hebrew Bible. Am I wrong about this? I thought it was in response to the observable fact that the just do not always prosper in this world. Not a bad segway into Christianity.
4
posted on
01/04/2004 8:14:54 PM PST
by
js1138
To: Pokey78
Well, my goodness, there's a bit more to say in God's defense in "Job." First of all, Satan has a very good question when he provokes God by asking "Does Job fear God for nothing?" I.e., of course he worships you, look at all the stuff you've given him.
Now God, being omniscient, knows that Job will pass the test. But that isn't the point. JOB doesn't know that he'll pass the test. At the end, Job is much BETTER off than he is at the beginning. yes, he gets back all his wealth and family, big deal. The important thing is that Job now knows that he is doing the right thing for the right reason, not because he's been bribed.
This is priceless self-knowledge and he could only have gotten it through being tested. Job also has a personal encounter with the Creator of the universe. Yes, God engages in a cosmic put-down of Job -- "Where were you when I made the world?" -- but He also speaks directly to Job, who now understands that he had been putting God into a box, i.e. had far too small an idea of God.
Job says, in one translation, that he is "comforted that he is dust." GK Chesterton commented that God comforts Job with riddles, but he does comfort him. Frederick Beuchner says God doesn't explain, He explodes. Chesterton likens it to a small child saying, "Mommy, I don't understand," and the mother, who DOES understand, can only say to the child, "Yes, you don't understand." And that is comforting if the child knows that the loving mother DOES understand, even if he doesn't.
5
posted on
01/04/2004 8:18:06 PM PST
by
docmcb
To: docmcb
Job is one of the earliest books in the Bible.
6
posted on
01/04/2004 8:21:30 PM PST
by
docmcb
To: Pokey78
I actually feel a little sorry for Dean on this one - it isn't often a candidate humiliates himself quite this openly, even for an intellectual third-rater like Howie. This one is actually painful to read, and I don't even like the guy.
Job is, of course, about as deep waters as you're going to find anywhere in any literature at all. It is one place where we are confronted directly with the profound difference between the nature of God and the nature of Man, covered up by anthropomorphism and very uneasy to contemplate. If there is a "Hollywoodization" of Job I'd say it's in the putative bet Safire alludes to, which is entirely outside the central question of whether a human can call God to account on the terms of the moral guidance that He has given his creation. Christians and Jews alike can debate this book for hours. My guess is that Dean's thoughts are measured in microseconds.
To: Pokey78
I often get my Testaments mixed up
8
posted on
01/04/2004 8:24:27 PM PST
by
woofie
To: Pokey78
**Last week, some five or six millennia later, "words without counsel" by Howard Dean were heard about the most controversial book in all theology.**
But Dean thought that Job was in the New Testament!
Words of Counsel to Dean: Forget quoting the Bible. It's obvious you don't know what you are talking about!
9
posted on
01/04/2004 8:30:35 PM PST
by
Salvation
(†With God all things are possible.†)
To: Billthedrill
Dean's flack:
"I think he means that some scholars believe that the Old Testament Book of Job that we know was amended by later rabbis fearful of portraying God as unjust."We now know that Dean likely subscribes to the "Bible as Literature" model, as opposed to the "Divine Dictation" model of scripture.
10
posted on
01/04/2004 8:31:48 PM PST
by
mvpel
(Michael Pelletier)
To: Billthedrill
Just another Dean gaafe!
But I haven't heard the big new coverage teams pounce on it, (like they did the other gaafes) have you?
11
posted on
01/04/2004 8:32:05 PM PST
by
Salvation
(†With God all things are possible.†)
To: Salvation
Jack Napier's brother likely chose Job since his advisers thought it would help him with the Reagan Democrat union crowd.
12
posted on
01/04/2004 8:56:10 PM PST
by
GulliverSwift
(Howard Dean is the Joker's insane twin brother.)
To: docmcb
Very nicely stated defense. I'd attend one of your classes any day!
13
posted on
01/04/2004 8:58:34 PM PST
by
arasina
(<-------------too sensitive)
To: mvpel
Yes, and that "some scholars" out is the same one Dean used to excuse his little innuendo that Bush knew about 9/11 in advance. It doesn't wash.
It's a pity, really, because this is an absolutely essential discourse in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and you cannot escape the questions Job addresses if you are to reconcile a loving God, or Yahweh, or Allah, with the existence of pain and tragedy on earth. For Christians, of course, the answer is that the covenant wasn't for here on earth, but afterward; but that answer doesn't arrive until the New Testament (better scholars than I may contest that, and I will gladly defer to greater learning).
I just wish Dean had picked another book to practice his line of bovine excrement on. He just isn't up to it. A few sessions with a decent priest or rabbi and he might glimpse the depths of the waters he's dogpaddling in, but that would require a certain humility that is a rare characteristic among politicians.
To: Billthedrill
Yes, Dean has jumped into very deep waters. Along with Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac (a harder test than Job's, many think) and the whole book of Ecclesiastes, Dean has picked just about the toughest material in Scripture to comment on.
15
posted on
01/04/2004 9:19:11 PM PST
by
docmcb
To: Pokey78; Billthedrill
After hearing Dean's observation beginning "If you know much about the Bible which I do," a reporter asked about his favorite New Testament book. Dean named Job, Priceless, what a student of the Bible. One of the reasons it wasn't mentioned by the media is maybe the media couldn't recognize it.
16
posted on
01/04/2004 9:22:32 PM PST
by
neverdem
(Xin loi min oi)
To: docmcb
Frankly, I'm a little intimidated by it myself. And it's old, very, very old, and very, very vital.
To: Billthedrill
I actually feel a little sorry for Dean on this one - it isn't often a candidate humiliates himself quite this openly, even for an intellectual third-rater like Howie.I just can't feel sorry for him - he brought this one on all by himself, because he's trying to pander to people he openly considers to be vastly inferior to himself intellectually and morally, by trying to flim-flam them. And Howie's so arrogant, so utterly secure in his ignorance, that he probably can't even begin to understand just how much of a fool he has made himself look like. No doubt he will consider himself to be that much more intelligent than the "ignorant Bible-bangers" he's trying to scam, when none of them believe his Christian act.
18
posted on
01/04/2004 9:24:34 PM PST
by
CFC__VRWC
(AIDS, abortion, euthanasia - don't liberals just kill ya?)
To: neverdem
Priceless, what a student of the Bible. One of the reasons it wasn't mentioned by the media is maybe the media couldn't recognize it.The media saw the word "Job", and went "Oh yeah, Bush has lost 3 billion of them since he stole the 2000 election."
19
posted on
01/04/2004 9:28:10 PM PST
by
CFC__VRWC
(AIDS, abortion, euthanasia - don't liberals just kill ya?)
Comment #20 Removed by Moderator
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-20, 21-40, 41-54 next last
Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson