Safire: Job and Dean

The New York Times ^ | 01/05/04 | William Safire

[far sider]

Dean (or one of his handlers) picked Job because he wanted to appeal to Jews and Christians. A NT book wouldn't do that.

[docmcb]

Uh, it was a rhetorical question. No answer was expected -- or possible.

[Kevin Curry]

In that case, Psalms would have been arguably superior choice.

[Billthedrill]

Actually, that's a pretty durn good representation of the central question in Job. And the answer is very unsatisfactory to our human minds - maybe He can have it both ways. And if you're pissed off about it, you ought to be - Job was. I am. Ain't fair. That's the point.

Just my $.02... ;-)

[Kevin Curry]

Many things seem unfair in the short term, when judged from a narrow and sort-sighted perspective.

[Billthedrill]

But that's all we're capable of, if I understand what Job is trying to tell us. The rest is faith. And it's asking a lot. And I think that may be the lesson.

[MHGinTN]

With your concept of dimension Time, I'm not surprised you make such silly comments about what or how the Creator is aligned with the creation.

[mvpel]

I gather that "humility" is about the last trait that anyone would ever concieve of applying to Howard Dean.

[Billthedrill]

Ouch.

Many thanks, all for a stimulating discussion - I have lots to think about. Bedtime. See y'all tomorrow!

[newzhawk]

the reason for lack of coverage on this gaffe is that journalists are notoriously and by admission usually non church goesrs so they probably have no idea it was even a gaffe to begin with

[claudiustg]

---After hearing Dean's observation beginning "If you know much about the Bible — which I do," a reporter asked about his favorite New Testament book. Dean named Job,

Priceless, what a student of the Bible. One of the reasons it wasn't mentioned by the media is maybe the media couldn't recognize it.---

At least he didn't launch into the story of Sampson slaying those Palastinians with the jawbone of an ass. :-)

[sfRummygirl]

It always is sad when politicians try to impress where they shouldn't.

[Blessed]

Dean and Satfire both miss the point.The "cosmic put down" is simply God making the point that he is God and Job is not.This is the test Adam failed.Adam wanted to be like God.Man's failure to understand that we were created by God for his reasons and his pleasure is the basis for both Christianity and Judism.If Dean and his ilk understood this they would not be so intent on destroying God's creation(abortion)or trying to justify violations of God's law (homosexuality.The creation has no right to question the creator.

[Joe_October]

...Just another Dean gaafe! ...

Don't worry, it will all be made right by the release of Dean's (phoney) reading list. He's so virile and brilliant and funny (and not angry in private) that we should just give up and crown him King-Emporor.

[Wilhelm Tell]

Job is a troubling book. One thing that is sometimes commented on is is how Job's friends keep giving him the standard religious answers to why calamity happened to him. They keep telling Job that he must have done something really bad for God to be mad enough to allow these things to happen, and they urge Job to repent. They sound like self-righteous know-it-alls who have the right answer to every question.

One thing I am not aware of anyone commenting about is the bad things that happen to the people around Job -- his children are killed and his servants are either killed or taken into captivity. One gets the feeling that these people are just pawns in a game between Satan and God. I do not really believe that God is some sort of impersonal trickster in an amoral universe, but I have had some dark moments in my life when I feared that such might be the case.

Maybe the story of Job is meant to keep us from thinking in terms of rewards and punishments. Sometimes goodness is rewarded, often it is not. Sometimes people do terribly wicked things to others, and not only are they not punished, they seem to prosper. Sometimes bad things seem to happen for no reason. These are all commonplace observations to which I have nothing to add.

We live in a broken world.

[Ruth A.]

"If you know much about the Bible — which I do,"

Dean's problem is that he wants to be considered a Biblical scholar. Therefore he is trying so hard to use Hebrew on occasion, summarize (correctly or incorrectly) Biblicals scholars and commentary and, for good measure, he will work Muslim words into conversations, too. In so doing he, first, points out what a poor student he is and, second, that he has no faith invested in this religious conversation.

[L.N. Smithee]

the reason for lack of coverage on this gaffe is that journalists are notoriously and by admission usually non church goers so they probably have no idea it was even a gaffe to begin with

Bingo.

[neverdem]

At least he didn't launch into the story of Sampson slaying those Palastinians with the jawbone of an ass. :-)

Our Lord commands mercy, which I interpret as not kicking Dean when he needs an oral foot extraction, something that Dean's supporters can only percieve and understand as a wealth redistribution scheme. The pubbies can't mistake what a gift Dean is.

[L.N. Smithee]

When I read Job, what I bring away from it is not that the Almighty screwed Job, which seems to be the thinking of Dean and Safire. It is that Job proved Satan wrong in his assertion that the most righteous man on earth was, in effect, bribed to love God through his wealth, family, and health. Job also did not, as Satan predicted, curse God to his face once things went awry for him without explanation.

There have always been and always will be people who are punished by God, but we who are not direct recipients of divine revelation (which I presume includes everyone here) don't have any idea which cases those are.

[docmcb]

Amen to all you said.