Globalists Destroying America

News Max.com ^ | Saturday, Jan. 10, 2004 | Diane Alden

[the gillman@blacklagoon.com]

We don't have twenty years.

[BureaucratusMaximus]

Scary stuff, but there are still many 'free traders' among us.

Methinks most of the free traitors here are retirees already collecting their social security. I mean, what other reason, other than cheap labor (in order to compete with China/India/Indonesia) could there be for people to willingly support the invasion from south of the border? Cheap labor=higher profits=a better bottom line on pension funds. Economics more important than the future of America...pretty nice isn't it?

[A. Pole]

Cheap labor hasn't hurt us yet. Growth, higher incomes, higher productivity.

This is a contradiction - cheaper labor means lower wages, unless you mean higher incomes for some at the expense of others.

[sixmil]

1) I am disgusted beyond words at the xenophobic terror about "waves of undocumenteds." For DECADES this country had pretty much a policy of "COME ON IN." If you did not have a criminal background and were willing to work, you were welcome.

Load of crap. Go to Ellis Island and check out the immigration museum. You will probably be disgusted at the things immigrants went through before they were allowed in.

[sixmil]

I'm convinced that the only way we can stop Mexican infiltration is by makign sure the Mexican economy grows so that it is not a basket case. it won't have a per capita GDP as high as ours, but high enough to make sure that folks don't feel the need to cross over as they get decent paying jobs in their own country. Similarly, Mexico should help it's poorer southern neighbours.

Why is it always the indirect approach with republicans these days?

[sixmil]

Folks that want a cheap maid servant but, as you say, want to make it illegal for them to get in here.

I'm not even sure it's the cheap thing anymore. These illegal maids get $20 per hour, but their employers don't have to pay any income or SS tax. So, it might be a good idea to get rid of those taxes, but I guess we can't since the free traders are so busy getting rid of import taxes.

[Fledermaus]

This is a contradiction - cheaper labor means lower wages, unless you mean higher incomes for some at the expense of others.

Your mind is stuck in non-reality. The average household income in the U.S. continues to rise and it rises amongst all brackets - top 20%, next 20%, etc.

And what do you mean by "higher incomes for some at the expense of others"? Are you a finite pie person that thinks someone getting a $5,000 a year raise means some others had to lose $5,000 a year?

[A. Pole]

Your mind is stuck in non-reality. The average household income in the U.S. continues to rise and it rises amongst all brackets - top 20%, next 20%, etc.

Remember that there is a key difference between median and average income.

Also not every rise in the average income is good. Imagine that you have two families - one making 25K per year and another 75K per year and that free market reform will change their income to 15K and 95K. The average income will increase 10%, for the first family it will be a disaster while the second one will have a moderate gain.

And what do you mean by "higher incomes for some at the expense of others"? Are you a finite pie person that thinks someone getting a $5,000 a year raise means some others had to lose $5,000 a year?

It depends, sometimes when society is organised toward common good where everybody gains, sometimes the few rich make many poorer in order to get more. You have oligarchic, corrupt and stratified societies and you have more egalitarian prosperous countries. Sweden or Danmark is better model than El Salvador.

[A. Pole]

[Fledermaus:]Cheap labor hasn't hurt us yet.

[A. Pole:] This is a contradiction - cheaper labor means lower wages, unless you mean higher incomes for some at the expense of others.

[Fledermaus:] Your mind is stuck in non-reality. The average household income in the U.S. continues to rise and it rises amongst all brackets - top 20%, next 20%, etc.

How can you have CHEAPER labor with higher wages? Could you explain me?

[Fledermaus]

It depends, sometimes when society is organised toward common good where everybody gains, sometimes the few rich make many poorer in order to get more. You have oligarchic, corrupt and stratified societies and you have more egalitarian prosperous countries. Sweden or Danmark is better model than El Salvador.

Thanks. Now I know to ignore your rants because you are a Communist.

[Fledermaus]

It's real simple. Try reading a book on basic economics and not Marx.

Cheap labor, or cheaper labor, is highly concentrated in jobs that require little or no skills. Take a factory job, for example, that pays $8 an hour to have someone put gromments in holes in a refrigerator body before insulating foam is pressured in. This is very unskilled labor that a chimp could be trained to do.

Now, that labor shifts to new unskilled labor that now goes for $7 an hour, then $6 and eventually minimum wage if they can find good gromment holers for a lower price.

This frees up the old $8 an hour worker to move up to the foam pressure department where they get paid $10 an hour because it's more sophisticated and crucial work. And then they move up by being trained to inventory control or even management.

I suggest you read some Walter Williams or Thomas Sowell or Milton Freidman and learn the basics of economies of scale, wage differentials, etc.

The VALUE of a more trained worker goes up and thus the wages while the unskilled work is filled with cheaper labor or that labor, if possible, is moved to other areas.

Just like we ship some labor of simple tasks to other countries, others ship their labor to the U.S. because of our highly trained and skilled workers. Germany and Japan now make their luxury cars (that Americans mostly buy) in the U.S. Especially in NON-union plants in Tennesee and Alabama (Toyota and Mercedes respectively).

It's pretty simple.

[A. Pole]

Sweden or Danmark is better model than El Salvador.

Thanks. Now I know to ignore your rants because you are a Communist.

You are funny if you think that Sweden or Danmark are Communist. Why don't you move to your Salvador?

[A. Pole]

It's pretty simple.

No, it is not simple. An ideology (like Free Market Fundamentalism or Marxism or Islamism or Fascism) can make world simple, but only in appearance.

[antaresequity]

SideBar Story:

Alaska Population expected to increase 1000% over the next twenty years.

Sales of large sailboats suitable for living aboard hit record highs, trend not seen abating.

[Fledermaus]

I couldn't care less about Sweden or DENMARK...

and I don't bother to debate Communist that believe, "sometimes when society is organised toward common good where everybody gains, sometimes the few rich make many poorer in order to get more. You have oligarchic, corrupt and stratified societies and you have more egalitarian prosperous countries. Sweden or Danmark is better model than El Salvador."

First, the "common good" is code for totalitarian and authoritative control by the few over the majority based on what they believe to be good, not was IS good.

Secondly, Sweden and Denmark are not egalitarian and prosperous with high unemployment, growing costs of social programs and high immigration rates based on their populations (a heck of a lot higher than ours).

Thirdly, why don't you give me some examples of those few RICH that make many POORER to "get more"? You can't because it's bullhockey!

You can't get rich taking away from the poor because they are, well, poor. And the United States isn't running slave labor camps which I'm sure you believe is happening. The RICH earned their money (other than rich Dems who inherit theirs) and created millionaires amongst their workers like McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, etc.

And since you are so big on classism and rich vs. poor, let's take away EVERY SINGLE DIME IN ASSETS FROM THE TOP 20 RICHEST AMERCIANS! Besides having no businesses left to run that hire millions, you wouldn't have enough money to run the federal government for 4 months. So why don't you complain about the government taxing us to death, including the poor (sales taxes, property taxes in rents, etc.)?

I'm glad I don't live in your little world of envy, jealousy and anger.

[A. Pole]

First, the "common good" is code for totalitarian and authoritative control by the few over the majority based on what they believe to be good, not was IS good.

Yes, the phrase "common good" can be abused to cover up the tyranny, so the "private interest" can be abused for thievery. Yet it does not mean that these words cannot have proper meaning.

[A. Pole]

Thirdly, why don't you give me some examples of those few RICH that make many POORER to "get more"? You can't because it's bullhockey!

Look at your beloved Latin America.

[A. Pole]

Thirdly, why don't you give me some examples of those few RICH that make many POORER to "get more"? You can't because it's bullhockey!

What about your heroes like Bierezovsky, Gusinsky and Khodorkovsky?

[Fledermaus]

I don't live in Latin America. Most of those countries are run on socialist/communist and leftist principles.

I live in the U.S.

You are a waste of time. You are the type that hates anyone that makes $1 more a year than you because you believe you were somehow slighted by $1 due to some evil force.

So go vote for Dean or whatever Democrat wins the nomination and feel better about yourself.

[Cronos]

Why is it always the indirect approach with republicans these days?

Because, we've got a huge border with Mexico. Keeping that border sealed tight will always be a problem and very expensive. Fighting the problem at the root cause helps. Oh we need to beef up our border security for the time being, but it won't help forever, we need to boost Mexico's economy and put the squeeze on Vicente Fox to get a permanent solution.