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The strange case of immigration politics
Washington Times ^ | January 14, 2004 | Tony Blankley

Posted on 01/15/2004 7:13:48 PM PST by Kay Soze

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:41:04 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

President Bush's recent, lamentable proposals on illegal immigrants highlight, yet again, that both the Republican and Democratic Parties heed neither public opinion nor their primary governing responsibility to defend and protect the United States, as it relates to illegal immigration.


(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: California
KEYWORDS: aliens; bushimmigration; illegalimmigration; immigrantlist; immigration
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"...both the Republican and Democratic Parties heed neither public opinion nor their primary governing responsibility to defend and protect the United States, as it relates to illegal immigration."
1 posted on 01/15/2004 7:13:49 PM PST by Kay Soze
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To: Kay Soze
Thus, for different but complementary reasons, neither party is currently disposed to fight hard for a maximum effort to secure our borders from illegal entry.

That is because that "maximum" effort would NEVER be acceptable to the nation. Until people are in fear for their lives by crossing the border nothing will stop them from crossing.

2 posted on 01/15/2004 7:18:24 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Kay Soze
I'm beginning to think that Karl Rove is overly influenced by the big donors. The rank and file tend to be pro-life, but many big donors are pro-abort--so Karl Rove supports pro-abort candidates in California and elsewhere. The rank and file are anti-illegal immigrants, but the big donors want cheap labor--so Karl Rove supports illegal immigration.

It's hard to see why else Bush would be doing this. It's not good for the country, and it's not smart politics as far as getting votes is concerned. Maybe it's big money.
3 posted on 01/15/2004 7:22:52 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Texasforever
..until people are in fear for their lives by crossing the border nothing will stop them from crossing...

The only person 'in fear' is President Bush, who's wondering how Vincente got pictures of his old Tijuana partying days. :) Cheers, By

4 posted on 01/15/2004 7:25:53 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Kay Soze
" Time/CNN poll disclosed 80 percent want the federal government to track down illegal aliens;"

And the media usually frames this 80 percent with the evil "conservative" word.

5 posted on 01/15/2004 7:25:58 PM PST by Shermy
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Kay Soze
MEChA Today

Some have suggested that MEChA is just another ethnic pride organization and that its Nazi-like founding documents (e.g El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan) are just a historical relic from the 1960s.



Well, no. Browse the multitude of MEChA chapter websites, like the one at UC Berkeley and you will find that many (if not most) claim that the founding documents are "fundamental" to the organization. Berkeley also indicates that it holds "orientations each semester to educate our membership on MEChA philosophy". What is MEChA philosophy? There is this widely posted document titled "Philosophy of MEChA" which states:

Both El Plan de Aztlan (EPA) and El Plan de Santa Barbara (EPSB) served as the historical foundation for the establishment of a viable Chicana/Chicano Movimento and are therefore fundamental to the M.E.Ch.A. Philosophy
The document confirms that this is all still living, breathing stuff:
This document was last changed or amended in whole or in part by a 2/3 vote at the 1999 National M.E.Ch.A. Conference at Phoenix Community College.

Cruz Bustamante, in defending his former participation in the group, said

The students who are in MEChA today are just like the students when I was there
Fair enough, but what are the students in MEChA like today?

I found the personal website of one recent college graduate and MEChA member. He writes poems, such as this one, called “I am that Chicano”:

( http://students.seattleu.edu/prendej1/chicanoart.html ):

I fought for the US in Vietnam and I will fight the US for Aztlan
Chicanismo is in my veins, it pumps mi corazon, the corazon of a true Chicano
my soul is puro Raza, my past is of the Mexica
and this Chicanos future is Aztlan!

Aztlan, recall, is what the Mechistas call those parts of the southwestern United States that they plan to "liberate" from the United States.
7 posted on 01/15/2004 7:32:46 PM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: Texasforever
...I see you are drunk again or is that still?...

I beg your pardon?

You...thought I was, serious, with that crack about the President's party pics?

He he he. Silly ol' Tex. Hoo hoo hoo. Just because this President panders to the Mexicans on every single issue that comes down the pipe, it doesn't mean they've got something on him, does it?

Hey, wait a minute.....

9 posted on 01/15/2004 7:34:12 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Are you legal? Maybe the INS should check you out.
10 posted on 01/15/2004 7:35:13 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Texasforever
..are you legal?...

Tex?

I think you've got your forums mixed up, mate. :)

11 posted on 01/15/2004 7:37:18 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Shermy
I'll just about guarantee that when Bush puts on the full court press for creating registered "guest workers" out of the existing illegals and promising to beef the border patrols substantially that the 80% number will drop below 50%. Though I must agree with Blankely that the cart and the horse seemed to be reversed.
12 posted on 01/15/2004 7:38:05 PM PST by pissant
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To: Cicero
No doubt about that. Karl Rove and President Bush totally missed the boat. They do not seem to understand this is really the one issue (and abortion) that can split the party, and dillute the base from turning out in November. I mean one only has to tune into talk radio a few times a month to realize what people are sick and tired of, and that is footing the bill for illegals.
13 posted on 01/15/2004 7:38:49 PM PST by Reagan79 (Pro Life! Pro Family! Pro Reagan!)
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To: cooperjones
...could our dear Prez be a racist coward on this issue?...

Doubtful, because it certainly doesn't fit his profile. But for some reason, he has got this blind spot, about Mexico. All we can do is kick and scream and hope poll feedback prompts a change of heart.

14 posted on 01/15/2004 7:40:11 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: cooperjones
Don't tell me it ain't courage for Bush to go against the grain of 80% of the American people. It might be foolish (we'll see in November), but it shows courage. He did campaign on a guest worker program, BTW.
15 posted on 01/15/2004 7:41:59 PM PST by pissant
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To: philetus
...I fought for the US in Vietnam and I will fight the US for Aztlan...

Change 'Aztlan' to the name of any other country on the planet, and he'd have the FBI kicking his door in.

16 posted on 01/15/2004 7:43:16 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Cicero
it's not smart politics as far as getting votes is concerned

Think about what would happen if the Democrat presidential candidate came out for enforcement of the borders. He would have a great chance of winning.

17 posted on 01/15/2004 7:46:01 PM PST by FreedomSurge
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To: Reagan79
I agree that this is Huge in scope and will damage the party.

Just click on the links on the Home page here at Free Republic (ACU or HUMAN EVENTS) and you’ll read alot of anger over this "proposal".

Its even a states right issue can of worms opened by the GOP!



[ pushing the party -> | RIGHT ]
18 posted on 01/15/2004 7:47:25 PM PST by Kay Soze (“The Bush immigration plan is heavily dependent on enforcement agencies we don't have”- WFBuckley)
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To: Kay Soze
Close your eyes and imagine it's 2030. What do you see?
19 posted on 01/15/2004 7:47:44 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
2030,We won't make it that long.
20 posted on 01/15/2004 7:56:50 PM PST by bulldogs
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To: Kay Soze
the GOP's leadership is afraid to risk antagonizing such votes by a secure borders policy.

I think the GOP remembers vividly how Pete Wilson's attack on illegal immigration put California into the Democrap's hands big-time.

21 posted on 01/15/2004 7:59:49 PM PST by expatpat
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To: Kay Soze
This latest immigration initiative of GWB will do to him what the health care fiasco did to Hillary at the beginning of WJC administration!
22 posted on 01/15/2004 8:01:36 PM PST by varon
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: Texasforever
Tex, putting the banter aside for a minute, you can see how annoyed our fellow Freepers are about this, and I guess the heartland must be pretty fed up, too. But the fact is Bush is conservatism's best bet, even the only bet, at this point. So somehow he's got to change his mind on the amnesty issue before the discontentment translates into voter apathy, or worse. Can you imagine anything more hideous than going through another nail-biting election like the last one?

Now, you're a Texan, and you must have studied him closer than most of us. When he's made a political mistake in the past, say, when he was Governor, how has he handled it? Will he change course if enough of his people want him to? Or is he one of those stubborn types? Cheers, By

24 posted on 01/15/2004 8:08:23 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: iwannabe
You do know Bush campaigned on creating a guest worker program, don't you
25 posted on 01/15/2004 8:08:31 PM PST by pissant
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To: Ben Ficklin
Great Article!

I heard on NPR earlier in the week that the aging of Mexico will push illegal immigration down starting in 2016.

Older Mexicans simply will be too settled and unwilling to make the huge lifestyle change that sneaking into the US requires.

Don’t misunderstand me, I am not against immigration.

We should increase our quotas to our southern neighbor.

But we should be in control of our immigration and not some drugged out coyotes.


26 posted on 01/15/2004 8:12:20 PM PST by Kay Soze (“The Bush immigration plan is heavily dependent on enforcement agencies we don't have”- WFBuckley)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
he's made a political mistake in the past, say, when he was Governor, how has he handled it? Will he change course if enough of his people want him to? Or is he one of those stubborn types? Cheers, By

No he will not change his mind. He is a stubborn cuss. He has advocated this proposal his entire life as a public official. He really believes it is the right thing to do and it makes no difference to him what the political implications are. What is surprising is the number of "teed off conservatives" that are shocked at this. He has been VERY public in his view on this issue both as governor and in his presidential campaign. No he will not back down because to him, he IS standing on principle.

27 posted on 01/15/2004 8:15:07 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Kay Soze
A guest worker program would be preferable to increasing immigration for two reasons:

First, it limits the political influence, and second, it enables these guest workers to return home with capital, which is critical for Mexico.

28 posted on 01/15/2004 8:28:18 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Texasforever
...he will not back down because to him, he IS standing on principle...

Right. As I feared.

We had a poster here about five years ago, Donna, from Arizona. She'd studied him since the Ma Richards days and she knew all about this soft spot on illegals. But I still find it amazing he's pushing something not even the Dems would dare to enunciate. Must be a personal thing, with the President? Oh well, I guess all we can do is hope the outrage dies down by towards the end of the year. What worries me is, you need as big a safety margin as possible when you're going up against the Dems, in case they pull some kind of last minute manufactured scandal out of the hat, that energises their usual stay-at-homes. if this kind of thing keeps popping up, we are going to be cutting into the safety margin.

29 posted on 01/15/2004 8:29:06 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Never mind Tex, he hates anything that wasn't born and conceived in Texas. He especially hates it when he is corrected by someone who is or used to be a subject of the Queen.
30 posted on 01/15/2004 8:34:58 PM PST by Nanodik (Libertarian, Ex-Canadian)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
People knew where he stood on this issue. They knew what they were getting. The howls of betrayal ring hollow, IMHO. So is the outrage.
31 posted on 01/15/2004 8:35:17 PM PST by hchutch (Why did the Nazgul run from Arwen's flash flood? All they managed to do was to end up dying tired.)
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To: Kay Soze
Buchanan is not looking so extreme now, is he?
32 posted on 01/15/2004 8:39:54 PM PST by nonliberal (Graduate: Curtis E. LeMay School of International Relations)
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To: Kay Soze
What if they gave an election and nobody came?
33 posted on 01/15/2004 8:40:59 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Texasforever
That is because that "maximum" effort would NEVER be acceptable to the nation. Until people are in fear for their lives by crossing the border nothing will stop them from crossing.

Don't know about that. I think a year or two in jail might change their minds some!

34 posted on 01/15/2004 8:58:58 PM PST by navyblue
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To: Nanodik; Texasforever
...never mind Tex, he hates anything that wasn't born and conceived in Texas...

Yep. I've seen some of that behaviour.

But my guess is he's a bit like myself, an ol' softie at heart, who responds best to a friendly overture:


35 posted on 01/15/2004 9:00:31 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: navyblue
think a year or two in jail might change their minds some!

Yep let's empty those jails for a misdemeanor.

36 posted on 01/15/2004 9:01:37 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Nanodik
someone who is or used to be a subject of the Queen.

Well when you start posting something that shows your break from the "Queen" I may take you seriously.

37 posted on 01/15/2004 9:04:02 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Thanks.
38 posted on 01/15/2004 9:05:15 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Cicero
Rove is evil.

That W. listens to him shows that W. is morally obtuse.
39 posted on 01/15/2004 9:08:50 PM PST by BenR2 ((John 3:16: Still True Today.))
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To: Texasforever
That is because that "maximum" effort would NEVER be acceptable to the nation. Until people are in fear for their lives by crossing the border nothing will stop them from crossing.

Wrong. There are many solutions to this government sponsored invasion.

40 posted on 01/15/2004 9:09:59 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: hchutch
..people knew where he stood on this issue. They knew what they were getting...

I don't think they ever believed he'd action it, HC.

Most may have known his personal view on illegals, but never expected this plan. When you get into the top job you should only push your personal agenda, if it's in the nation's best interests. I don't think anyone could say that about this initiative.

41 posted on 01/15/2004 9:18:07 PM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
The thing is, though, he believes it is. And one thing about him - when he proposes something, I think it's because he BELIEVES it is the best thing for this country. The same can be said for his cabinet officers - even when they have made some calls I disagree with (Colin Powell on the AUC; Tommy Thompson on ephedra - the former I must give Powell some benefit of the doubt on, the latter I hope is overturned via litigation).

I'd rather have someone like that than someone like Clinton, Dean, or Clark.
42 posted on 01/15/2004 9:25:45 PM PST by hchutch (Why did the Nazgul run from Arwen's flash flood? All they managed to do was to end up dying tired.)
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To: Texasforever
What is surprising is the number of "teed off conservatives" that are shocked at this. He has been VERY public in his view on this issue both as governor and in his presidential campaign.

"Guest worker" means different things to different people. To most conservatives it means Jose gets a permit to work for a limited period of time and then goes home!

But the perception about this proposal is that Jose comes in, along with the Mrs. and the kiddies for at least three years with the ability to extend. Also from the President's lips -- Some of them may even choose to stay and become American citizens.

That's not just a guest worker! That is a free pass into the country. And if it applies to illegals already here, then it is amnesty no matter how you distort it!

43 posted on 01/15/2004 9:26:46 PM PST by navyblue
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To: Texasforever
Yep let's empty those jails for a misdemeanor.

Naa, we don't have to do that. We'll do just like that Arizona sheriff does. Put them in tents and make them wear pink underwear!

44 posted on 01/15/2004 9:33:22 PM PST by navyblue
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..
pimg
45 posted on 01/16/2004 10:34:49 AM PST by gubamyster
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To: All
Australia had..

We need...


46 posted on 01/16/2004 10:51:26 AM PST by HennepinPrisoner
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To: hchutch
People knew where he stood on this issue. They knew what they were getting.

Those of us paying attention have long known that President Bush is soft on Illegals. However, it's not quite true that people "knew what they were getting." Many still don't know, because President Bush wants to keep it from them.

What would people be getting with the Bush proposal?

Amnesty, despite his cynical efforts to spin it otherwise.

The major differences, as far as the Illegals are concerned, between the Bush Amnesty and the Reagan Amnesty, are that the Illegals would have to pay a "one-time fee," and would have to get a blue card before they get a green card.

The howls of betrayal ring hollow, IMHO. So is the outrage.

It's easy to see how pro-Amnesty folks such as yourself might kid themselves into thinking so. We shall see, won't we?

One reason, however, why your humble opinion rings a little hollow on this, at least to me, is the fact that you're even on these threads. If you really thought this was a non-issue, you wouldn't be here.

As always, good to see you.


47 posted on 01/16/2004 11:11:14 AM PST by Sabertooth (Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deport Themselves - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts)
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To: navyblue; hchutch
Don't know about that. I think a year or two in jail might change their minds some!

Yup, give the illegals a year or two of "three hots and a cot" at taxpayer expense.

Some deterrent.

48 posted on 01/16/2004 11:16:24 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
All we can do is kick and scream

No, we can petition the government to stop illegal immigration. We can petition our representatives in the House and Senate to censure. We can as a last resort call for impeachment. These are powers vested in the citizens of this country.

We can also make citizens arrests. And report illegals and hold officials accountable to the law for dealing with them.
49 posted on 01/16/2004 11:22:10 AM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: pissant
You do know Bush campaigned on creating a guest worker program, don't you>>>>>>>>


YES, most people are well aware of that, however, I think we expected a plan that would be FAIR & ENFORCEABLE.

All I heard was a proposal to legalize *line-jumping*, & apparently the creation of some *super dept.* that can verify illegals (MILLIONS), match them to *legal* employers (MORE MILLIONS)& also monitor the *help wanted* ads they run. Sounds to me like another TAX funded nightmare.

In our post 9-11 'world', I would also expect him to put MORE effort into this statement he's also made "the most compassionate way to deal with illegals is to stop them at the borders". (also in his 1999 book)
50 posted on 01/16/2004 11:22:48 AM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
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