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Negligence Found in Gov. Carnahan Crash
Guardian.co.uk ^ | Jan 17, 2004 | Margaret Stafford

Posted on 01/16/2004 6:17:06 PM PST by Hillarys Gate Cult

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To: JETDRVR; bootless; snopercod; Archangelsk
"Round up the usual suspects" for a flying thread.

Was I too hard on the kid? Partial panel is a drag. Still, people do it all the time without becoming a 300-knot fireball, and then blaming equipment that was serving you loyally until you gave it the old terra-firma bounce test.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
21 posted on 01/16/2004 7:25:49 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Thanks for the extra information. I assumed the vacuum pump had failed since that has been a problem. I've had several letters from Parker-Hanefin about it and ours went a few weeks ago (tho' not while IFR, thank God).

If he still had the DG, you're right, there's no excuse since you can fly on the DG and altimeter without too much skill. On the other hand, sometimes the AI goes and you may not realize it, and believe in it 'til it's too late.

22 posted on 01/16/2004 8:00:10 PM PST by expatpat
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To: Hillarys Gate Cult
I thought most planes have a back up indicator that isn't powered by pumps.

Most planes only have one set of instruments, but larger ones have two sets with separate power sources. There is a bit of redundancy, though- most aircraft use a vacuum pump to drive the attitude and heading indicators and electric power for the turn co-ordinator. I don't know the FAA standards but in Canada even VFR pilots are required to train for instrument flight without the attitude indicator; it's exhausting but not impossible. My own take is that unless there was a compelling reason (such as low fuel) to make that approach he should have flown to some alternate airport where visibility was better.

23 posted on 01/16/2004 8:23:38 PM PST by Squawk 8888 (Earth first! We can mine the other planets later.)
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To: Squawk 8888
My own take is that unless there was a compelling reason (such as low fuel) to make that approach he should have flown to some alternate airport where visibility was better.

If I remember right, he had just taken off from the airport. Right into a severe storm !! They were trying to make a fundraiser. I recall when they announced this on the TV, I thought what fool would be out flying in this weather. ( I live in St.Louis ).
24 posted on 01/16/2004 8:36:37 PM PST by Peace will be here soon (Beware, there are some crazy people around here !!! And I could be one of them !!)
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To: Hillarys Gate Cult
"From what I know about this, the pilot shouldn't have been flying in weather that bad."

I don't think I'd go that far, however the weather that night was incredibly foggy. I remember it well, because then Governor Bush was landing in St. Louis to participate in the last debate against Albore. And we were concerned about his arrival. When I got home, and turned on the TV, I learned that that there was a plane crash. However there was a thread on FR, where I first discovered that Mel Carnahan might have been on it. The thread was from freepers in Kansas City, and we coordinated local news from both ends of the state from there. I wish I could find that thread.....

25 posted on 01/16/2004 8:40:59 PM PST by A Citizen Reporter
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Good call on the spatial D issue. Depending on when he realized his primary failed he might have already been screwed up when he transitioned to the other instrument.

For the non-aviators out there, use of an attitude indicator not located in the center of the pilot's control panel is very apt to cause a bad case of vertigo. Depending on the pilot's experience level, and the lateral stability of the aircraft (the tendency to of the airplane to stay wings level) this can be a big problem.

It is even possible in some instances for pilots who are experiencing vertigo to input the opposite control inputs of what they want to do.

26 posted on 01/16/2004 8:49:27 PM PST by USNBandit
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To: expatpat
I remember that the news reported right after the accident that the FAA had active TDs out on that type of aircraft for the instruments, but I couldn't remember if it was the indicator itself or the pumps.
27 posted on 01/16/2004 8:52:43 PM PST by USNBandit
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To: Marie Antoinette
I am a pilot with an Instrument rating.

This airplane is a twin and so would have had vacuum pumps on both engines. It is unlikely that both would fail at the same time. The NTSB said they were working.

Part of IFR training is to fly "partial panel". I had to do that as part of my training. What that means is flying with the vacuum instruments not working.

I had to make an IFR approach to minimums on partial panel.

It is difficult but if you have practiced it, it can be done.

One of the requirements to remain current for IFR is making 6 approaches in the last 6 months. A pilot should make practice approaches using partial panel as part of his normal routine.

This appears that he did get disoriented. That is easy to do if you haven't practiced. The jury felt sorry for them and gave them some money.

It was most likely just like John Kennedy Jr. He was flying a plane that was more than he could safely handle under the circumstances.

28 posted on 01/16/2004 9:01:38 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Hillarys Gate Cult
Here is the FR thread, from that very night.....
29 posted on 01/16/2004 9:14:51 PM PST by A Citizen Reporter
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To: zip
ping
30 posted on 01/16/2004 9:51:12 PM PST by Mrs Zip
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To: Hillarys Gate Cult
Normally, the gyros in the Attitude Indicator ("artificial horizon") and DG or HSI (Heading Indicator or Horizontal Situation Indicator) are vacuum driven.

Vacuum pumps are notorious for failing at the worst possible times.

For that reason, the backup instruments are electrically powered or not powered at all. The (electrically-powered) Turn Coordinator, magnetic compass, and airspeed indicator give you enough information to keep the plane flying straight and level in an emergency. "Needle, ball, and airspeed"

31 posted on 01/17/2004 2:50:54 AM PST by snopercod (You've posted a total of 583 threads and 16,125 replies.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
No, you're right. A jury of people too dumb to get out of jury duty...

I'm going all electric on my Lancair (when I can afford it), with a backup battery. Vacuum pumps are simply too unreliable.

Ever read Bob Nuckoll's Aeroelectric Connection?

32 posted on 01/17/2004 2:55:55 AM PST by snopercod (You've posted a total of 583 threads and 16,126 replies.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Continuing on here...

Vacuum pumps are notoriously unreliable, but the likelihood of two of them failing simultaneously is almost beyond comprehension.

OTOH, the fact that they were rotatating upon impact means only that the drive gear had not failed. Normally, what fails in those babies are the rotors. The drive gears never fail. Had a rotor failed, it would have left marks on the housing, too.

Who the hell was the defense attorney, anyway? Obviously, he was a dumb $hit (or bought off).

The fact that the pilot was attempting to use the right-side AI indicates that he was unable or unwilling to use the needle-ball-airspeed method on the gages right in front of him.

Being a politician's son, he probably thought that recurrent training on the basics was for the "little people".

33 posted on 01/17/2004 3:05:12 AM PST by snopercod (You've posted a total of 583 threads and 16,127 replies.)
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To: Dan(9698)
Good post. Thanks.

It also occurs to me that there is a vacuum-regulator associated with each of these pumps. Those have a foam filter ring on them that can become clogged.

Everything You Wanted to Know about Why Vacuum Pumps Fail

34 posted on 01/17/2004 3:19:07 AM PST by snopercod (You've posted a total of 583 threads and 16,128 replies.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
OK, everybody, read the official NTSB Report.
"The pilot's failure to control the airplane while maneuvering because of spatial disorientation."

Criminal 18F,
Nice job of compiling the facts.

35 posted on 01/17/2004 4:26:15 AM PST by XHogPilot
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To: USNBandit; Criminal Number 18F
I'd guess the pump. It would be interesting to know if the two AI's each had separate vacuum pumps or if both ran off the same pump, with the other as backup for the first pump. Maybe CN18F knows.
36 posted on 01/17/2004 7:11:36 AM PST by expatpat
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To: expatpat
They are normally connected using check valves so that either can run all the instruments. If one fails, the vacuum from the other assumes the load for everything.

On single engine airplanes such as the T210, they may be equipped with two separate vacuum pumps connected that way also.

Anyone who does a lot of IFR will put in an electric attitude indicator on the left panel for a backup.

After reading the comments about his log book, it is obvious he was over his head.

I would not ride with a pilot who has not logged at least practice IFR in the last month.

Could you go without driving a car for 6 months and then jump into LosAngeles traffic in a race car?

37 posted on 01/17/2004 10:22:10 AM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Dan(9698)
Sounds to me like he didn't realize the left AI had gone until it was too late. I'm surprised that a pilot flying commercial for-profit wouldn't be much more current with IFR. It also raises an interesting point: presumably he was flying with constant-speed props -- with fixed-pitch props, he would have easily heard the engine speed-up when he started to pitch down.
38 posted on 01/17/2004 10:59:08 AM PST by expatpat
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To: expatpat
All airplanes more complex than a C172 (single engine, 4 passenger) have constant speed props. It is like an automatic transmission in that it adjusts to the load placed on it.

An airplane does not decend unless power is reduced, the trim is changed, or it goes into a fairly steep turn. An airplane does not decend without the pilot knowing about it except when they are disoriented. (banking steeply and starting a spiral)

I don't think that was a commercial airplane. Normally that kind of airplane is private or corporate.

Anyway it was the senator's son who was flying. From the comments about his log book, he did not fly professionally.

Private pilots flying twins have the worst record because they do not practice enough and aren't flying enough to stay sharp.

39 posted on 01/17/2004 1:41:54 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Dan(9698)
Thanks for the lecture on props and descending, but I knew that already! My point was that when he started to lose it, and the A/S began to go up (he hit at 300+), he wouldn't notice it as easily with a constant-speed prop.

One of the other reasons private twins have such a bad safety record is the engine-out problem and the danger of a spin. Many pilots believe that an engine-out in a single is less dangerous than in a twin. It's counter-intuitive, of course, but at least you don't have to fight the yaw in a single. Of course, at night it's a different matter......

40 posted on 01/17/2004 2:35:13 PM PST by expatpat
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