The false dilemma behind the Bush Amnesty

January 17th, 2004 | Sabertooth

[dirtboy]

Because our enemies came to kill the women and children, and GWB confronted them courageously and is now whipping their asses all across the planet.

A worthy action made necessary by the appeasement of terrorism by his predecessor.

So why, then, is appeasement of illegal aliens his method of choice to deal with this particular problem, when action has worked best in the war on terror?

[Sabertooth]

No, that's not how I read it. Yes, there are "opportunities" for renewal, but they have to FIRST go home to get said opportunity. See above.

Your reading is incorrect.

The President isn't proposing a future requirement on legal "guest workers" that he won't impose on them when they're currently Illegals.

If the President won't make a Mexican Illegal go home to Tijuana to apply for a blue card, he's not going to make an Indian go home Calcutta for renewal.

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

Mendacity has nothing to do with it.

Over reacting, crisis-mongeuring and unnecessary, negative projecting does, however.

[ovrtaxt]

Okay. You're being disengenuous. Have a nice debate.

[dirtboy]

Mendacity has nothing to do with it.

Downplaying a serious abridgement of First Amendment rights to try and make a political point fits my definition of mendacity.

Over reacting, crisis-mongeuring and unnecessary, negative projecting does, however.

So since I'm over-reacting to McCain-Feingold, perhaps you can tell my what is so wonderful about that bill. Most conservatives I read are aghast that it was passed by Congress, signed by the president and upheld by SCOTUS.

[Marine Inspector]

Fiscal Year 2003 Apprehension Numbers

In fiscal year 2003 (October 2002 through September 2003) the Immigration & Naturalization Service / Department of Homeland Security apprehended 1,046,422 deportable aliens in the United States.

SEX AND AGE

• 862,646 (82.4%) of the aliens apprehended were adult males over the age of 14.
• 144,965 (13.9%) of the aliens apprehended were adult females over the age of 14.
• 38,811 (3.7%) of the aliens apprehended were minors, 14 years of age or younger.

STATUS AT ENTRY

• 22,832 (2.2%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on B1 or B2 Visitor visas.
• 392 (0.03%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on D1 or D2 Crew visas.
• 1,879 (0.2%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on F1 or F2 Student visas.
• 169 (0.02%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on H2 or H4 Temporary Agriculture Worker visas.
• 330 (0.03%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on H1, H2, H3 or H4 Temporary Worker visas.
• 6,320 (0.6%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on other Non-Immigrant visas.
• 9,688 (0.9%) of the aliens apprehended were legally admitted to the United States on Immigrant or Refugee visas or with other conditional entry.
• 123 (0.01%) of the aliens apprehended were Stowaways (alien on a vessel or airplane without the knowledge of the crew and without documentation to allow entry).
• 285 (0.03%) of the aliens apprehended were in a Transit Without Visa (TWOV) status.
• 984,244 (94%) of the aliens apprehended Entered Without Inspection (EWI) across the Mexican border.
• 2,506 (0.2%) of the aliens apprehended Entered Without Inspection (EWI) across the Canadian border.
• 17,654 (1.7%) of the aliens apprehended Entered Without Inspection (EWI) across borders other than Canada or Mexico (i.e. coastal area, Guam or Puerto Rico).

LENGTH OF TIME IN THE UNITED STATES

• 836,970 (80%) of the aliens apprehended were apprehended at entry into the United States.
• 32,545 (3.1%) of the aliens apprehended were apprehended within 72 hours of entry into the United States.
• 21,334 (2%) of the aliens apprehended were apprehended after 72 hours and within 30 days of entry into the United States.
• 44,907 (4.3%) of the aliens apprehended were apprehended after 30 days and within 1 year of entry into the United States.
• 110,741 (10.6%) of the aliens apprehended were apprehended after 1 year of entry into the United States.

EMPLOYMENT STATUS

• 726 (0.07%) of the apprehended aliens were employed in heavy industry. Heavy industry is the production of raw or bulk manufacturing materials and durable goods. Examples: mining, oil and gas extraction, textile mills, vehicle and heavy equipment assembly, fabrication of metal, glass, lumber, building materials or plastics.
• 4,194 (0.4%) of the apprehended aliens were employed in light industry. Light industry is the production of consumer goods. Examples: electronic and electrical components, clothing, replacement parts, food products and sport equipment.
• 2,955 (0.28%) of the apprehended aliens were employed in Agriculture. Agriculture is production of raw food and plant products. Examples: harvesting fruit, vegetables, flowers or grains, fishing, forestry, bee keeping, husbandry of dairy or beef cattle, sheep, pigs, or fowl.
• 4,341 (0.41%) of the apprehended aliens were employed in Construction. Construction is the trades and professions involved in building, renovating or destroying commercial, residential or other structures.
• 13,362 (1.28%) of the apprehended aliens were employed in the service trades. Service trades are those trades or businesses that are not involved with manufacturing. Examples: wholesale and retail sales, banking, restaurants, entertainment, transportation, communication, public utilities, health care, travel and lodging, education, personal services, administration of government and courts.
• 368 (0.04%) of the apprehended aliens were receiving public assistance, food stamps, unemployment compensation, housing subsidies, student loans or other entitlement benefits.
• 868,453 (83%) of the apprehended aliens stated they were seeking employment.

SMUGGLING

• 5,122 (0.49%) of the apprehended aliens were responsible for the direction of aliens to illegally enter the United States or who transport or harbor aliens within the United States. This includes illegal aliens and Lawful Permanent Residents (LPR's) but does not include United States citizens.
• 159,185 (15.2%) of the apprehended aliens were smuggled or claim to have been smuggled into the United States or who have been transported or harbored within the United States.

FALSE CLAIMS

• 1,628 (0.2%) of the apprehended aliens orally claimed during an interview to be a citizen of the United States or who by presentation or possession of birth, travel or identification documents make false claims to United States citizenship.
• 1,486 (0.14%) of the apprehended aliens orally claimed during an interview to be a Lawful Permanent Resident of the United States or who by the presentation or possession of Forms I-151, I-551, Reentry Permit, Refugee Travel Document, or other alien registration make false claims to legal permanent residency.

OTHER

• 85,957 (8.2%) of the apprehended aliens were apprehended while institutionalized in jails, prisons, mental institutions, hospitals, ect.
• 896,910 (85.7%) of the apprehended aliens were found in travel. This means the alien found was going from one point to another except in daily travel within his own community or to go to and from work.

[Marine Inspector]

Hopefully by the end of the week, I'll have the rest of 2003 put together and on my website.

[Marine Inspector]

Ping.

[Ben Ficklin]

The False Solution:

They say that if the Bush, Cornyn, McCain et al plan is shot down in a large enough fire, there will arise from the flames a groundswell of public opinion to deport them all.

The reality is found in Bush's statement that the American public does not have the political willpower to deport them. One should realise that this is not an opinion that Bush pulled out of his hat, it a product of polling data and focus groups.

The second reality is that the left has their ideas about how the the illegals should be handled; Amnesty, as in citizenship. Whatever comes out of Congress will be a compromise and that compromise will be determined by the political power of each group.

Will you be marching down the street holding hands with PFAW?

[Sabertooth]

Thanks, great post.

[ninenot]

You will note that in this AM's news, Paul Weyrich states that Bush is now seriously endangering his vote from "the Base."

Weyrich, Club for Growth, and a few other conservative organizations are steamed about the Budget proposal (bushbots say it's "only" a 6% increase request, and will "only" be 5% next year...)

And that's BEFORE the details on his Amnesty are known.

Yesterday brings us the news that the Amnesty will apply to ALL classes of individuals from ALL countries and will eliminate the H1B program.

That means that nurses, programmers, engineers, manufacturing-floor types, and ANYBODY ELSE will now be looking for employment at rates comparable to the rates that someone from Bengladesh will take...

HOOOOOOEEEE!!

It's not just for cabbage-pickers anymore!

For reference go to www.zazona.org.

[Southack]

"Trouble is, this three-year thing has to be enforced. Will it be enforced? Do you believe it?"

Yes, it will be enforced. Why will it be enforced *after* Bush's new immigration plan takes place, you ask, when the old laws weren't, however?

Glad you asked. The answer, of course, is that something in Bush's plan has *changed* the status quo.

Currently, our government doesn't "know" where all 8 million illegals live and work. All that it can currently do is to make random law enforcement raids to round up a few illegals here and there.

That makes for a big problem. Consider the effort that the NAZIs went to in order to round up 6 million Jews in Europe during WW2. That was a large project.

This one is even bigger. We've got 8 million undocumented illegals here.

What Bush's new plan does is to document them. By registering, they tell us where they live and who they work for.

And *registration* changes everything. It makes our problem much more manageable. Random raids and massive law enforcement resources become much less necessary. We no longer have to guess at where they are located. We no longer have to expend resources to just find them.

Bush's plan also requires that they all go home voluntarily after three years in order to apply for new extensions to work here. That form of voluntary self-deportation is precisely what Sabertooth is calling for in his editorial for this thread above, though he like you seems to be against Bush's plan that does that very thing.

So by *registering* and *self-deporting*, Bush's plan takes care of most of those 8 million. Those few illegals who choose to continue not playing by our rules will represent a much smaller logistical problem than our current 8 million illegals, too...thus giving us a fighting chance at being able to track them down with our limited resources.

Thus, I see these new rules being enforced. Enforcing these new rules is far more manageable than the old problem of attempting to use force and resources on all 8 million illegals.

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

Never judge a vehicle, until you have driven it a few miles to give it an honest evaluation first.

As far as the "most conservatives" you read, the fringe 1% are irrelevant like Buchannan proved in 2000.

You cannot hide in your bunker forever until they come looking for you. So, figure out a way to join us and change hearts and minds gradually like our President is so thanklessly doing. It's obvious, he has courage you envy.

[ninenot]

Actually, the requirement is for the newly-amnestied illegal to return "at some time" during the first three years. And the blue card is permanently renewable.

Once it is understood that this is the end of H1B limitations, and that using foreign workers for ANY job in the USA, there will be a revolution.

Programmers from India are happy with $25K/year. I am sure that many of our "leading Companies" will be happy with that, too.

But the banks won't--because they will be sitting on one hell of a lot of foreclosed homes.

[dirtboy]

Never judge a vehicle, until you have driven it a few miles to give it an honest evaluation first.

I can read it just fine, I don't have to wait for it to T-bone me in the crosswalk. And, once again, maybe you can explain why it isn't a big deal.

As far as the "most conservatives" you read, the fringe 1% are irrelevant like Buchannan proved in 2000.

So Rush is fringe? National Review is fringe? The Wall Sreet Journal is fringe?

You cannot hide in your bunker forever until they come looking for you.

Congratulations on a completely inane and irrelevant statement. A bygone art form.

So, figure out a way to join us and change hearts and minds gradually like our President is so thanklessly doing. It's obvious, he has courage you envy.

You're just being an ass now. Apparently to you, I'm not allowed to provide valid criticism of Bush's proposal without being discounted as a right-wing nutbar. But, then again, you also don't think McCain-Feingold is a big deal either. So maybe you APPROVE of the suppression of political dissent.

[Southack]

"And if we can make them go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue card, THEN WHY CAN'T WE JUST MAKE THEM GO HOME NOW? Why would we suddenly be able to do something, we not only claim we can't do now, but use as the basis for this policy: "we can't deport them all."

Because right now we don't know where all 8 million live and work, as well as due to the fact that it would take an enormous logistical effort to forceably round up all 8 million illegals.

On the other hand, *after* Bush's new immigration plan passes, illegals will *volunteer* to register for their new blue cards. Once registered, we will then *know* where they live and who they work for...simplifying our enforcement.

Moreover, most of those aliens will choose to return to their homes after 3 years rather than risk losing all that they've worked for while in Bush's program. That accomplishes our goal of convincing them to deport themselves, and it further simplifies the remaining scope of our enforcement problem because there will be fewer of them left to deal with.

[Sabertooth]

The False Solution:

They say that if the Bush, Cornyn, McCain et al plan is shot down in a large enough fire, there will arise from the flames a groundswell of public opinion to deport them all.

That argument is not my argument. You should read more carefully.

The reality is found in Bush's statement that the American public does not have the political willpower to deport them. One should realise that this is not an opinion that Bush pulled out of his hat, it a product of polling data and focus groups.

This is a variation of the Xenophobia option in the dilemma behind the Bush Amnesty, and as such, is impertinent.

The second reality is that the left has their ideas about how the the illegals should be handled; Amnesty, as in citizenship. Whatever comes out of Congress will be a compromise and that compromise will be determined by the political power of each group.

Objection: incorrect definition of Amnesty, accompanied by hairsplitting.

Will you be marching down the street holding hands with PFAW?

Highly doubtful, as even a cursory reading of my post would indicate.

[4Freedom]

"The problem is, any Democrat would be worse."

A Democrat's amnesty plan would be worse, but it would have less of a chance of getting past a Republican Congress.

Government would be safely gridlocked.

The Republicans would have fought a Democrat President tooth and nail, if he'd proposed only half the budget-busting, Socialist programs that Bush has.

Many Republicans are going along with Bush's Socialist, open borders agenda simply because he's a Republican.

IMO, that's the greatest danger of a second Bush presidency.

[Print]

Let's look at "willing employer" aspect of the proposal. Willing employers will be required to submit a proof that no American wanted the job. This creates huge potential for abuse. Greedy "willing" employers will find any excuse for not hiring an American worker. And just like offshoring ships american jobs overseas, this will take jobs away from Americans on American soil.

[ninenot]

Actually, Southie, budget busting is not NEARLY the problem as violating the Oath he took to "defend the Constitution"--except in the case of political speech, which might actually be used against an incumbent....

You like people who don't take oaths seriously, eh? You must lave LOVED X42.