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The false dilemma behind the Bush Amnesty
January 17th, 2004 | Sabertooth

Posted on 01/17/2004 10:01:59 AM PST by Sabertooth

Debate rages, and will through 2004, about President Bush’s “not an Amnesty” Amnesty proposal to legalize the 8 to 12 million Illegal Aliens his Administration has said are currently here in our country.

Amnesty proponents and enablers uniformly offer only three solutions to the Illegal Alien problem.

1. Coexistence: Just maintain the status quo through inaction.
2. Amnesty: This is appeasement, and surrender.
3. Xenophobia: Build a police state.

That’s a pretty thin list, and as we’ll see, not an accurate one. Its exclusive presentation amounts to a fallacy of False Dilemma.

It should be noted that Amnesty is a nearly inevitable consequence of Coexistence. Not surprisingly, therefore, Amnesty proponents commonly raise the specter of Xenophobia so that they can paint dark insinuations and distract attention from the symbiosis of their appeasement with the failed policy of Coexistence. Calling other people Nazis is a neat way of cloaking one’s own kinship with Neville Chamberlain.

If we had accepted the same false dilemma in the War on Terror, we'd never have fought it. We'd be the same as Democrats, who’ve made a willingness to appease a party litmus test.

The War on Terror didn’t begin on September 11th, 2001, it began with the first World Trade Center attack in 1993, and was conducted against us by Al Qaeda and our enemies all throughout the 1990s. President Clinton, however, opted not to take the fight to the enemy, and so the Clintonistas held throughout the 90s that terrorism was an intractable problem with which we'd just have to Coexist , and made their policies accordingly. Not surprisingly, when President Clinton had an opportunity to take Osama bin Laden into custody, he lacked the courage to do so. Clinton’s spine also failed him on three occasions where our Special Forces were in position to kill bin Laden. By the end of his Presidency, Clinton’s appeasement of terror was in full bloom; visits from uber-terrorist Yassir Arafat were a source of pride to him, and ultimately, he even granted pardons to Puerto Rican terrorists.

Pardons and clemencies, like Amnesties, absolve wrongdoers of further responsibility for past crimes. When a policy of Coexistence with wrongdoing is pursued long enough, absolution of wrongdoing will eventually become part of the negotiation to make the craven failure to confront it appear magnanimous.

On September 11th, 2001, the War on Terror changed. America didn't accept the false dilemma of Coexistence, Appeasement, or Xenophobia. Coexistence had failed, and with it went any thought of absolution for wrongdoing. Clintonian appeasement was over. Xenophobic notions of “kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out,” and “nuke Mecca” were also ruled out, because we’re Americans, and hold ourselves to higher standards of morality and ingenuity.

What then, of the fallacy presented in the false dilemma of the Coexistence / Amnesty / Xenophobia triad?

We rightfully threw it on the ash heap of History.

We took a fourth, Asymmetric approach to the Terrorists, and are now reaping the benefits. After wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, suddenly Libya is turning over their WMD programs without a shot being fired; Iran is on the bubble and contemplating the same thing; Syria and the PLA are increasingly isolated; and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are finally getting the message that coddling Al Qaeda is a losing proposition. Early on in the WoT, it was understood that victory is a policy which reaps a sweet harvest. While the investment in the initial successes was relatively high, they generated a momentum that is making inexpensive windfalls of subsequent victories.

Yet none of this could have happened if we’d followed the appeasement tendencies of the Democrats. In ten years, we’d have been looking at a Middle East full of North Koreas, which was the crown jewel of President Clinton’s failed policy of Coexistence and appeasement.

Naturally, being innate appeasers, the Democrats and Clinton also have pursued Coexistence and Amnesty in dealing with the problem of the millions of Illegal Aliens currently living in our country. Three times in the 1990s, Clinton signed legislation enabling Section 245(i) of the Immigration and Naturalization Code, thereby granting Amnesties to more than a million Illegals Aliens (twice with at GOP House and Senate). Appeasement failed, of course, as it must, and by the end of Clinton’s eight years, there were millions more Illegals than when he started.

Now we have a Republican Administration, as well as a GOP House and Senate. The Clintonian policies of Coexistence with and Amnesties for Illegal Aliens have clearly failed. So, President Bush has taken the initiative and offered an “Immigration Reform” proposal that would legalize not just a million Illegals, as Clinton did, but millions of them. Rather than turning from the failed Clinton policies, President Bush is embracing an even more radical version of them.

So now, pro-Amnesty Republicans and their enablers are offering the same solutions on Illegals as the Democrats did: Amnesty (even though they split hairs and pretend otherwise. They are attempting to frame the debate with the same false dilemma that the Democrats did with the War on Terror: Coexistence, Amnesty/appeasement, and Xenophobia.

Where is the fourth option, Asymmetry? It has worked so well in the WoT; why are we not exploring Asymmetric solutions to the Illegal Alien problem?

We can effectively solve much of the Illegal Alien problem, without Amnesty, if we apply a similar, Asymmetric approach to that of the War on Terror. Obviously, it's not necessary or moral to conduct a war against Illegals, but by applying systematic pressure to all of the factors that encourage the Illegals to violate our laws and sovereignty, we can win early victories that generate and sustain a momentum whereby the problem starts to solve itself.

The key is to get the Illegals to leave our country on their own initiative.

They Will Deport Themselves

There are plenty of steps we can take to do this.

Eighteen Illegal Alien solutions that are better than any Amnesty

Not only is encouragement of Illegal Alien self-deportation humane and cost effective, there has already been considerable success in this regard with Pakistani Illegals.

25% of Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deported Themselves since 2001 -
Facts against the Bush Amnesty

If we project that modest 25% self-deportation rate of the Pakistani Illegals onto the the 8 to 12 million Illegals that DHS Secretary Tom Ridge concedes are here, we’re talking about 2 to 3 million fewer Illegals in a short period of time. However, the Pakistani Illegals self-deported in response to a set of incentives that was far from comprehensive. A much higher rate of self-deportation of Illegals is certainly feasible, if we simply roll up our sleeves and get on with it.

Historian Victor Davis Hanson recently said:

We never would have had this conversation [about Illegal Aliens] in 1950. There was no conversation about a wall or a fence. It was very simple: If you came across the border illegally, you were deported. The employer was not to hire people who were here illegally. It's very simple to do, but it just requires a degree of courage.
Paradise Lost? (Victor Davis Hanson comments on Bush's immigration proposal)
The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (FR link) - January 10, 2004
Bill Steigerwald with Victor Davis Hanson

As with the War on Terror, so too with the Illegal Aliens; it’s now time to throw the false dilemma of Coexistence, Amnesty, or Xenophobia on the ash heap of History. Amnesty failed under Presidents Reagan and Clinton, and will fail under President Bush if it’s attempted.

Rewards for lawbreaking beget more lawbreaking.

Diligent enforcement of our immigration laws succeeded in the 1950s, and would again; but we would be better served by a more humane, Asymmetric approach today, whereby relatively few deportations would result in a great many self-deportations of Illegal Aliens.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; US: Arizona; US: California; US: New Mexico; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; bushamnesty; gop; illegalaliens; illegals; immigration; selfdeportation
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Other than Terror and taxes, I lost my enthusiasm for President Bush quite a while ago. I remember what he did during the #187 Campaign in 1994. Despite some trepidations, I was broken glass in 2000, and even dragged my daughter to street protests on Bush's behalf during the Florida mess (here in L.A., not in Fla.). Bought her a Sore Loserman t-shirt a year before I became a Freeper.

I was was quite proud of the President following 9/11, and am pleased overall with his prosecution of the war. However, the President's domestic agenda leaves me cold, for the most part. I want nothing to do with most of it, I think it's bad for the country.

The problem is, any Democrat would be worse. Setting aside the rest of their foolishness for the moment, we need to understand that every one of the Democrat Presidential candidates supports worse Amnesties for Illegal Aliens than that proposed by President Bush.

So, for now, my vote remains Bush's to lose, and I'm getting a big clothes-pin ready for November. Could he lose it? Sure, but I'd have to think long and hard on it. Something rotten would have to happen, though, because I'd vote for him today.

On the other hand, I can't quite go along with those who say "the kool aid's fine, jump in!" I don't trust politicians, any of them. I believe power tends to corrupt, and that it deludes long before it corrupts. I expect and elect politicians to do the right things, so I focus on where they don't.

Such is the case with President Bush's "not an Amnesty" Amnesty proposal for Illegal Aliens. It's a reward for lawbreakers, and all of the hairsplitting over the Bush blue cards vs. the green cards of the Reagan Amnesty are most unpersuasive.

So, the trick now is to get President Bush reelected, while simultaneously defeating his Amnesty, for good.

Part of the trick depends on meeting the challenge of offering genuine solutions. Consider that challenge met.


1 posted on 01/17/2004 10:01:59 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: CheneyChick; vikingchick; Victoria Delsoul; WIMom; kmiller1k; mhking; rdb3; Travis McGee; Shermy; ..




FYI


2 posted on 01/17/2004 10:03:33 AM PST by Sabertooth (Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deport Themselves - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts)
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To: Sabertooth
Bump
3 posted on 01/17/2004 10:08:37 AM PST by SAMWolf (I am Homer of Borg. Prepare to be... ooooohh, doughnuts!)
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To: Sabertooth
Nice essay. Like you, I'm a little more than annoyed with Bush's overall domestic agenda. I clearly remember in August of 2001, sadly scraping the Bush sticker off my car. He had just started his leftward domestic tilt, with the Education bill and so forth. Now, we have damaged the First Amendment, a trail of big government spending in between.

I never forgot what Buchanan said about him during the primary, and he was right.

Quite a testament to the impact of 911. It's still outweighs the alternatives. But if we lose the Constitution in the process, what are we defending?
4 posted on 01/17/2004 10:13:00 AM PST by ovrtaxt (You post like a girl.)
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To: Sabertooth
So, the trick now is to get President Bush reelected, while simultaneously defeating his Amnesty, for good.

That's not the trick, the trick is how did Bush turn so many conservatives into socialist lemmings?

5 posted on 01/17/2004 10:16:42 AM PST by Nephi (Compassionate conservativism: Sure it's socialism, but what are you gonna do, vote for Nikita Dean?)
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To: Sabertooth
I was was quite proud of the President following 9/11, and am pleased overall with his prosecution of the war. However, the President's domestic agenda leaves me cold, for the most part. I want nothing to do with most of it, I think it's bad for the country.

Repeat and Bump.

6 posted on 01/17/2004 10:20:16 AM PST by SCalGal
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To: Sabertooth; Ace2U; Alamo-Girl; Alas; alfons; alphadog; amom; AndreaZingg; Anonymous2; ...
Rights, farms, environment ping.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.


If this is taxes with reprsentation
Give me taxes without representation
I much prefer a tax on tea!
Instead of everything else.

7 posted on 01/17/2004 10:23:33 AM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: JustPiper
Bump
8 posted on 01/17/2004 10:27:43 AM PST by HennepinPrisoner (I voted for GWB and I got Vicente Fox ...write-in Tancredo on March 9th.)
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To: Sabertooth
Mr. Tooth, I start to read it and I feel my blood pressure rise. So if you'll forgive me, I'll just give it a BUMP for the time being.
9 posted on 01/17/2004 10:31:32 AM PST by Barnacle (A Human Shield against the onslaught of Leftist tripe.)
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To: farmfriend
BTTT!!!!!!
10 posted on 01/17/2004 10:33:19 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: Sabertooth
Nice work. Just as with the war on terror, it took us a long time to get here, and it will take some time to reverse the tide. But apparently to some, appeasement rightfully was never an option after 9/11 - but appeasement amnesty is the way to deal with illegal immigration - despite the fact that amnesty has been tried and doesn't work.
11 posted on 01/17/2004 10:36:50 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Sabertooth
Part of the trick depends on meeting the challenge of offering genuine solutions

Another part is working hard to elect a Congressman and a Senator who will oppose Bush when he strays off the reservation.

12 posted on 01/17/2004 10:37:56 AM PST by Amerigomag
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To: Sabertooth
"by applying systematic pressure to all of the factors that encourage the Illegals to violate our laws and sovereignty, we can win early victories that generate and sustain a momentum whereby the problem starts to solve itself.

The key is to get the Illegals to leave our country on their own initiative."

Of course, this is precisely what Bush's new immigration plan *does*, except of course that it accomplishes this key goal in a non-obvious manner (hence, unnecessary and hostile reaction to said plan).

For instance, Bush's plan offers a carrot/reward to illegals. If they register with the federal government, then they get a blue card, can't be hassled by INS raids, can get a bank account, can transfer money back to their relatives without paying outrageous bribes, become eligible for tax refunds (some of their payroll taxes are refundable), can return to their home countries on vacations without fearing yet another illegal border crossing, and they become immune to the deportation blackmail scams of illegal employers as well as other illegals.

But Bush's carrot/reward to illegals comes with a catch or two. For one thing, they have to *register* with our government to get that reward. Registration changes everything, too. Our status quo *without* registering illegals is that our government doesn't know, institutionally, where all 8 million illegals live and work.

However, once they register for Bush's reward/carrot, poof, we suddenly know who they are, where they live, and who they work for. Now the INS can track them and the IRS can tax them. Like I said, *registration* changes everything.

And there's more...

Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

But by returning to their home countries voluntarily, they have just done what would take an army of law enforcement to otherwise do by force: they will have deported themselves.

Considering that the 8 million illegals are a larger problem in size/scope than the relocations by force of 6 million Jews in Europe during WW2, this accomplishment of convincing illegals to self-deport themselves voluntarily is not insignificant.

In fact, it is brilliant.

President Bush's plan, once it is finally understood by most radio talk show hosts, will one day be lauded for delivering on precisely your above demands for convincing illegals to go home on their own.

13 posted on 01/17/2004 10:38:01 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Sabertooth
I don't know if proposals/approaches on this subject should be categorized so neatly as you suggest. For example, most of your 18 points could in theory be combined with the principles from President Bush's speech last week.

Suppose such a combination, some sort of guest worker approach which includes current illegals along with some of your enforcement measures, made it through Congress. Depending on the specifics I might support that. Is any kind of legalization of most of those currently here illegally a deal-breaker for you, regardless of what else is in the package?

14 posted on 01/17/2004 10:40:42 AM PST by AzJohn
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To: Sabertooth
"However, the President's domestic agenda leaves me cold, for the most part. I want nothing to do with most of it, I think it's bad for the country."

Banning Partial Birth Abortion leaves you cold and you want nothing to do with it?!

Cutting income taxes and dividend taxes is the wrong direction domestically for you?!

Cutting red tape for building new logging roads, killing CO2 regulations for our electricity providers, and deep-sixing OSHA's proposed ban on American home businesses for "ergonomic" reasons is something to be upset with?!

Surely not. I know you better than that. Surely you were simply painting with too broad of a brush. Surely you simply meant that letting Congress spend too much money was wrong-headed and that signing CFR in the face of today's warped SCOTUS was a tactical mistake, NOT that the above-mentioned domestic policies go against your own beliefs...

15 posted on 01/17/2004 10:42:40 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: ovrtaxt; dirtboy; Nephi; SCalGal; farmfriend
c#13
16 posted on 01/17/2004 10:46:20 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
"However, the President's domestic agenda leaves me cold, for the most part. I want nothing to do with most of it, I think it's bad for the country."

Banning Partial Birth Abortion leaves you cold and you want nothing to do with it?! Cutting income taxes and dividend taxes is the wrong direction domestically for you?!

Why don't you just ask him what parts he doesn't like and go from there, instead of attempting to put words in his mouth?

17 posted on 01/17/2004 10:47:05 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Southack
I like your logical approach.

I also prefer to wait and see how it pans out. It surely is no worse off than we are now, which is not really that bad in the first place.

The hyper ventilators should just breath deeply into a paper bag.. it helps pseudo-hypoxia.

The bill will more than likely be defeated in the legislature anyway because of the gross ignorance of conservatives misjudging the merits of the bill in the first place.

18 posted on 01/17/2004 10:47:44 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP (Help put a RAT in the White house......vote THIRD PARTY!)
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To: Nephi
How did Bush do it? Well if you are referring to the people that surround him, they weren't conservatives-really. Constituents who are conservatives were so sick of Clinton that they welcomed Bush without thorough examination (me for example) I continued being a Bush supporter and felt confused about some Bush policies. But I continued supporting. More liberal policy.. But I continued supporting. The illegal alien issue came along, I began to open my eyes did the research and realized I had been a fool. The illegal amnesty proposal along with the Patriot Act should make any American, much less conservatives, shake in their boots. If they do not, then they refuse to see what is ahead, the refuse to believe that someone they trusted betrayed them or they have something to gain.
19 posted on 01/17/2004 10:48:16 AM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004)
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To: Southack
Same stuff, different thread. I already made my opinions clear last night regarding your presentation of Bush's proposal.
20 posted on 01/17/2004 10:48:32 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
The bill will more than likely be defeated in the legislature anyway

Funny, I recall the same thing being said about McCain-Feingold.

21 posted on 01/17/2004 10:49:18 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Southack
The key is to get the Illegals to leave our country on their own initiative."

Of course, this is precisely what Bush's new immigration plan *does*, except of course that it accomplishes this key goal in a non-obvious manner (hence, unnecessary and hostile reaction to said plan).

No, it doesn't.

The President proposes that the Federal Government offer temporary worker status to undocumented men and women now employed in the United States and to those in foreign countries who have been offered employment here. The workers under temporary status must pay a one-time fee to register in the program, abide by the rules, and return home after their period of work expires. There would be an opportunity for renewal. In the future, only people outside the U.S. may join the temporary worker program, and there will be an orderly system in place to address the needs of workers and companies.
Fact Sheet: Fair and Secure Immigration Reform
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
January 7, 2004

The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards. Do you honestly believe that if the President won't make Illegals go home to get into the so-called "guest worker" program, that he'll make them go home for renewal, after they've been legalized?

Furthermore, this President doesn't deport many Illegals now, and still releases Illegals with standing deportation orders on OR. That's why we have 100,000 more absconders now than we did two years ago.

There are upwards of 400,000 individuals who have received final deportation orders that are hiding in our communities. Their appeals have run out, and those orders tell them, “it’s time to go.” But, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement can’t find them! What’s worse, 80,000 of those people have criminal convictions, just like Miguel Angelo Gordoba! They were in the hands of our law enforcement. Can you imagine opening the doors of our prisons and letting 80,000 criminals run back into the streets? Well folks, that’s exactly what has happened with these 80,000 criminal aliens.

What’s more, 3,800 of those people with final deportation orders are from countries with a known Al-Qaeda presence.
Statement of the Honorable Charlie Norwood
The CLEAR Act of 2003
July 9, 2003

Compare these figures to those of two years ago...

The Justice Department's decision to track down and deport 6,000 Middle Eastern aliens who've been ordered to leave the country attracted howls of protest from all the usual places earlier this week. The government has a list of more than 300,000 deportable immigrants.
Deportation Disorder
National Review Online
John J. Miller & Ramesh Ponnuru | January 10th, 2002

These are Illegals who've lost their deportation hearings, and the President still hasn't recognized that they are flight risk.

Why would the President's lackluster approach to enforcing the law against Illegals suddenly change after their legaliization?


22 posted on 01/17/2004 10:49:40 AM PST by Sabertooth (Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deport Themselves - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts)
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To: dirtboy
Last night you and I settled our positions on registration.

Today, Sabertooth's thread focuses on convincing illegals to go home voluntarily.

Thus, a new wrinkle has been added to our earlier debate.

One wonders, if you are against registration, will you likewise oppose convincing illegals to return home voluntarily?

And that's a question. I'm not putting words into your mouth.

23 posted on 01/17/2004 10:51:55 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Sabertooth
Why would the President's lackluster approach to enforcing the law against Illegals suddenly change after their legaliization?

And, looking at Bush's proposal from the viewpoint of illegal aliens, the ones who might register are the ones who come here for a short time period and plan to leave after making some money for their family back in Mexico. The ones who have lived here illegally for years, who are trying to bring their entire family here, aren't about to tell the government where they are and set the clock ticking as to their eventual departure. They'll wait for a full amnesty to be proposed.

24 posted on 01/17/2004 10:53:25 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Sabertooth
"The workers under temporary status must pay a one-time fee to register in the program, abide by the rules, and return home after their period of work expires. There would be an opportunity for renewal."

"The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards." - Sabertooth

No, that's not how I read it. Yes, there are "opportunities" for renewal, but they have to FIRST go home to get said opportunity. See above.

25 posted on 01/17/2004 10:54:46 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

Unless they have a baby.

Just a microcosm of the whole plan. It's too easy to 'work the system' here. Welfare and all public assistance currently available to illegals needs to be ended. That would do more to remove the incentive for these lawbreakers than anything Bush has proposed.

The truth is, he is kissing Fox's butt over this issue. Why? I have yet to figure that out.

26 posted on 01/17/2004 10:54:57 AM PST by ovrtaxt (You post like a girl.)
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To: Southack
After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

A little over half of the illegals we have now are people who came here legally originally and overstayed their visas. I'm skeptical that the voluntary departures you describe will usually happen. I think we'll need some additional interior enforcement, although there is a possibility that might be incorporated as this goes through Congress.

27 posted on 01/17/2004 10:55:19 AM PST by AzJohn
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To: Southack; dirtboy
Cutting income taxes and dividend taxes is the wrong direction domestically for you?!

From my post at #1:

"Other than Terror and taxes, I lost my enthusiasm for President Bush quite a while ago."

As to the rest of the red herrings... also from #1:

"However, the President's domestic agenda leaves me cold, for the most part. I want nothing to do with most of it, I think it's bad for the country."

Since you know me "better than that," and since this second glance has shown that my brush was not as broad as you'd thought at first, there's no need to go any further off-topic.


28 posted on 01/17/2004 10:56:48 AM PST by Sabertooth (Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deport Themselves - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts)
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To: Zipporah
"The illegal amnesty proposal along with the Patriot Act should make any American, much less conservatives, shake in their boots."

Nonsense. I've read the entire Patriot Act. It's harmless. You can't cite a single sentence in that entire law that does didly against your rights.

Anyone who claims that the Patriot Act threatens Americans is someone who hasn't read that law on their own.

And that includes you.

29 posted on 01/17/2004 10:57:26 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Sabertooth
Point taken.
30 posted on 01/17/2004 10:57:57 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
One wonders, if you are against registration, will you likewise oppose convincing illegals to return home voluntarily?

Let's go back to the speeding analogy from last night. If enforcement is stepped up, a few speeders are caught, but the sight of increased enforcement gets most speeders to slow down voluntarily. IMO the only people who might be willing to register are men who plan to only be here for a short period of time, who are already planning to return home. The people who are already here illegally for a long period of time won't register and start the clock ticking. They'll remain in the shadows and wait for a better deal.

However, if we eliminate government bennies for illegals and make it very painful to get caught hiring illegals, the folks who have been here for years will no longer wish to stay, as they will have no means to support themselves. They will deport themselves or starve. Maybe we can have a modest federal program to provide bus fare to any illegal who is willing to leave voluntarily.

31 posted on 01/17/2004 10:58:00 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: dirtboy
So, what's your point?

All that hyper ventillating over McCain-Feingold and the country is still here.......amazing!

32 posted on 01/17/2004 10:58:30 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP (Help put a RAT in the White house......vote THIRD PARTY!)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
So, what's your point? All that hyper ventillating over McCain-Feingold and the country is still here.......amazing!

Mendacity is normally not a viable debating point, but you're apparently willing to try.

33 posted on 01/17/2004 11:00:13 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Nephi
the trick is how did Bush turn so many conservatives into socialist lemmings?

Because our enemies came to kill the women and children, and GWB confronted them courageously and is now whipping their asses all across the planet.

There are no purists in foxholes, or something like that.

34 posted on 01/17/2004 11:00:27 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: Southack
I've read the entire Patriot Act. It's harmless. You can't cite a single sentence in that entire law that does didly against your rights.

Anyone who claims that the Patriot Act threatens Americans is someone who hasn't read that law on their own.

Can you imagine the Patriot Act with Hillary in power? It wouldn't be the Islamofascists whose phones they tap.

35 posted on 01/17/2004 11:01:05 AM PST by ovrtaxt (You post like a girl.)
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To: Sabertooth
bump for later read!
36 posted on 01/17/2004 11:01:21 AM PST by lainde (Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
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To: Jim Noble
That's so true. Give us a small government conservative who's hawkish on the war in the primary, and Bush has serious competition. Unfortunately, that's not reality.
37 posted on 01/17/2004 11:03:01 AM PST by ovrtaxt (You post like a girl.)
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To: Southack
re: Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

A Bush-supporter friend of mine is using this argument to try to get me over being upset with that "willing worker and willing employer" line.

Trouble is, this three-year thing has to be enforced.

Will it be enforced? Do you believe it?

38 posted on 01/17/2004 11:03:10 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: ovrtaxt
"Can you imagine the Patriot Act with Hillary in power? It wouldn't be the Islamofascists whose phones they tap."

The Patriot Act didn't invent phone tapping.

39 posted on 01/17/2004 11:03:33 AM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Sabertooth
The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards. Do you honestly believe that if the President won't make Illegals go home to get into the so-called "guest worker" program, that he'll make them go home for renewal, after they've been legalized?

And if we can make them go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue card, THEN WHY CAN'T WE JUST MAKE THEM GO HOME NOW? Why would we suddenly be able to do something, we not only claim we can't do now, but use as the basis for this policy: "we can't deport them all."

Furthermore, I see no reason to believe that the illegals here now are all going to sign up for this program. There will still be a black labor market, as there is now. There will still be employers who do not want to jump through the red tape to hire a payroll person to handle withholdings or an HR person to authenticate documents of new hires.

And, black market labor may pay more after taxes and SS are taken out, epecially if the guest workers are supposed to fill those jobs no other American's want, ie low paying.

I won't even get into the inevitable social program expansion that will be required to subsidize low-paid guest workers.

40 posted on 01/17/2004 11:04:02 AM PST by diotima (tithesthai ta phenomena)
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To: Jim Noble
Because our enemies came to kill the women and children, and GWB confronted them courageously and is now whipping their asses all across the planet.

A worthy action made necessary by the appeasement of terrorism by his predecessor.

So why, then, is appeasement of illegal aliens his method of choice to deal with this particular problem, when action has worked best in the war on terror?

41 posted on 01/17/2004 11:04:10 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Southack
No, that's not how I read it. Yes, there are "opportunities" for renewal, but they have to FIRST go home to get said opportunity. See above.

Your reading is incorrect.

The President isn't proposing a future requirement on legal "guest workers" that he won't impose on them when they're currently Illegals.

If the President won't make a Mexican Illegal go home to Tijuana to apply for a blue card, he's not going to make an Indian go home Calcutta for renewal.


42 posted on 01/17/2004 11:04:48 AM PST by Sabertooth (Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deport Themselves - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts)
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To: dirtboy
Mendacity has nothing to do with it.

Over reacting, crisis-mongeuring and unnecessary, negative projecting does, however.

43 posted on 01/17/2004 11:04:54 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP (Help put a RAT in the White house......vote THIRD PARTY!)
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To: Southack
Okay. You're being disengenuous. Have a nice debate.
44 posted on 01/17/2004 11:05:13 AM PST by ovrtaxt (You post like a girl.)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
Mendacity has nothing to do with it.

Downplaying a serious abridgement of First Amendment rights to try and make a political point fits my definition of mendacity.

Over reacting, crisis-mongeuring and unnecessary, negative projecting does, however.

So since I'm over-reacting to McCain-Feingold, perhaps you can tell my what is so wonderful about that bill. Most conservatives I read are aghast that it was passed by Congress, signed by the president and upheld by SCOTUS.

45 posted on 01/17/2004 11:07:07 AM PST by dirtboy (Howard Dean - all bike and no path)
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To: Sabertooth
Fiscal Year 2003 Apprehension Numbers

In fiscal year 2003 (October 2002 through September 2003) the Immigration & Naturalization Service / Department of Homeland Security apprehended 1,046,422 deportable aliens in the United States.

SEX AND AGE

STATUS AT ENTRY

LENGTH OF TIME IN THE UNITED STATES

EMPLOYMENT STATUS

SMUGGLING

FALSE CLAIMS

OTHER

46 posted on 01/17/2004 11:09:06 AM PST by Marine Inspector (TANCREDO 2004)
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To: Sabertooth
Hopefully by the end of the week, I'll have the rest of 2003 put together and on my website.
47 posted on 01/17/2004 11:10:24 AM PST by Marine Inspector (TANCREDO 2004)
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To: B4Ranch
Ping.
48 posted on 01/17/2004 11:11:31 AM PST by Marine Inspector (TANCREDO 2004)
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To: Sabertooth
The False Solution:

They say that if the Bush, Cornyn, McCain et al plan is shot down in a large enough fire, there will arise from the flames a groundswell of public opinion to deport them all.

The reality is found in Bush's statement that the American public does not have the political willpower to deport them. One should realise that this is not an opinion that Bush pulled out of his hat, it a product of polling data and focus groups.

The second reality is that the left has their ideas about how the the illegals should be handled; Amnesty, as in citizenship. Whatever comes out of Congress will be a compromise and that compromise will be determined by the political power of each group.

Will you be marching down the street holding hands with PFAW?

49 posted on 01/17/2004 11:11:50 AM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Marine Inspector





Thanks, great post.


50 posted on 01/17/2004 11:12:35 AM PST by Sabertooth (Pakistani Illegal Aliens Deport Themselves - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts)
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