Posted on 01/19/2004 2:11:37 PM PST by A Citizen Reporter
This morning Steve Doocey of Fox and Friends interviewed Howard Dean, and asked him a question about the "Panic attacks" that Dean experienced when he learned that he was to become the Governor of Vermont. Howie flatly denied it as false.
When I investigated this I did learn that the term "Panic attack" was verbage that Carl Limbacher had inserted into the story, however, I found this an interesting study in the way People magazine cleaned up all the references to Howie's anxiety problems and the counseling he received, which he did admit in the transcript of the interview on People's website.
For your consideration, I have posted both the article that is currently on the newstands, and the transcript of the interview:
The article from the printed version of People magazine: ________________________________________________________
"THE RUNNING MATES
He’s a hardheaded penny-pincher, she’s a publicity-shy doctor. In their first joint interview, Howard and Judy Dean talk about the rocky road to D.C.
To people in Burlington, Vt., Howard and Judy Dean are just the folks next door. Their split-level ranch on the edge of town is nondescript, featuring Brady Bunch décor (green shag carpeting, Beatles and Grateful Dead records stacked by the hi-fi) and a rusted Chevy Blazer parked in the drive. Busy with a thriving medical practice, Judy, 50, manages to get to PTA meetings but barely has time to cook a meal for the family, which includes son Paul, 18, a high school senior, and Anne, 19, who is at Yale. Howard, 55, meanwhile, also a doctor by training, takes Yankee thrift to such extremes that he still wears a polyester JCPenney suit he bought 16 years ago and an ancient purple ski jacket that has faded to something closer to orange. This is a man who has clearly never watched Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. “I’ve heard of it,” he admits, “but it’s on cable.” Needless to say, the Deans don’t do cable.
If Howard Brush Dean III has his way, next year he and Judy will be moving out of their humble house and into slightly more grandiose digs: the White House. Since declaring his candidacy for President in June, Dean, who served as Vermont’s governor for nearly 12 years, has gone from virtual unknown to front-runner in the race among nine candidates to win the Democratic party’s nomination. Buoyed by an endorsement from former Vice President Al Gore and an army of energetic young volunteers, he’s built a $40 million war chest in time for the first crucial battles of the election season—the Jan. 19 Iowa caucuses and the Jan. 27 New Hampshire primary. “Howard Dean is an incredibly shrewd politician to get from where he was to where he is now,” says Stephen Hess, a senior fellow at Washington’s independent Brookings Institution. “He was strongly against the was in Iraq to distinguish himself from the others in his party, and the most forceful and vitriolic opponent of President George W. Bush.”
One thing he does not have, however, is a traditional politician’s wife. With the exception of an appearance on the day he declared his candidacy in Burlington last summer, neither Judy nor the couple’s children has ever joined Howard on the stump. As first lady of Vermont, Judy maintained her own practice and attended only two of her husband’s four inaugural parties. She’s seldom seen at Dean campaign headquarters—raising fears among some supporters that her refusal to stand by her man will rankle traditional voters. “Whether she likes it or not, the President’s wife has a role to play,” says Bonnie Angelo, author of First Mothers, a history of First Ladies. “There’s a sense that something is missing with her not being out there.”
Until now the Deans have done little to combat that impression by refusing to be interviewed as a couple. But in an exclusive conversation with PEOPLE at their home Jan. 9, both Deans agree that the time has come to talk more about their life together. “The people of the country have a right to know about Judy, because she’s been a huge influence on me,” says Howard. A quiet woman, Judith Steinberg Dean (she uses her maiden name in her practice) says she doesn’t fear a more public role. “I wouldn’t choose to be a political person,” she says. “But I believe that Howard would do a great job as President. I figure I’ll deal with whatever comes up.” Not that she hasn’t made some effort already. Judy says she recently baked chocolate-chip cookies for her husband’s staff. “One of my very few contributions,” she says. “They’re not fussy about what they eat.”
Jokes aside, Judy Dean makes it clear she still won’t shift priorities, even if her husband wins the Presidency. “I will continue to do medicine in some way.” She says when asked how she would spend her time in Washington. “I like it. And I’m good at it.” When asked whether she’s prepared to preside over a state dinner, she replies candidly, “I haven’t really thought about it, but I think I could probably do it. With a little help.” Does she consider herself a member of her husband’s kitchen cabinet? “I don’t really give advice,” she says, although her husband disagrees. “The best advice she gave me was that I looked like an idiot on television,” he says. Then, correcting himself, he says, “She wouldn’t say it that way. She’d say, ‘You didn’t do very well on television.’”
Mild mannered and serious though she may be, Judy Dean, friends say, I just what the doctor ordered when it comes to giving an unsparing clinical diagnosis to her husband, a man who even loved ones admit can be hard-headed. The son of Howard Dean Jr., a conservative Republican stockbroker known in the family as “Big Howard,” and Andree Maitland Dean, an art appraiser, Dean and his three younger brothers grew up in the privileged precincts of Park Avenue and East Hampton, N.Y. Entering Yale in 1967-President Bush’s senior year there—Dean was a typical left-leaning student of his time who nevertheless decided to follow his father to Wall Street after graduation.
Though a back injury would keep him from being drafted, the Vietnam War changed the course of Howard’s life. While traveling in Laos in 1974, his 24-year-old younger brother Charlie, a peace activist, was killed by communist guerrillas; the State Department later told the Deans he had been beheaded. “It was devastating to our family,” says Jim Dean, 49, who works for his brother’s campaign. “It spurred Howard to think about what he was doing with his life and do something more meaningful.” During the 80’s Howard briefly went into therapy to deal with his grief, and he still wears his deceased brother’s leather-and-brass belt every day. (Charlie’s remains were found buried in a Laotian bomb crater and returned to the family only last year.)
After entering Albert Einstein Medical College in the Bronx in 1974, Howard met Judith Steinberg, the Princeton-educated daughter of two physicians from Roslyn, Long Island. “I was sitting next to a friend of mine, and I just said, ‘That girl’s adorable,’” he recalls. Later he approached her in the library. “Everybody was in torn jeans and sneakers and knapsacks, and Howie wore khaki pants or corduroys with a buttoned-down shirt and a briefcase,” says Judy, who agreed to a dinner date. He cooked spaghetti for her at his parents’ apartment.
Howard moved to Vermont in 1978 and Judy followed a year later; they set up a joint practice and were wed in a civil ceremony in 1981. For a time, both volunteered at Planned Parenthood but didn’t perform abortions. “I don’t have a moral problem [with the procedure],” Howard says. “But neither of us are trained to do abortions.” Howard was soon involved in politics, first as a state representative, then in the part-time job of lieutenant governor, and after the sudden death of Gov. Richard Snelling in 1991, as the state’s top official. “I started hyperventilating,” he says of hearing of Snelling’s death. “To suddenly have responsibility for 600,000 people, it provokes a little anxiety.” He served 11 ½ years, during which Judy was the main breadwinner. “I would do the day-to-day adventure,” like sailing and hiking trips. For her 50th birthday last year, Howard, ever frugal, gave Judy a flowering shrub. “Being practical, I wanted something to plant in the back lawn,” he explains.
Despite the expectations of others, the Deans don’t expect their simple life to change much, whatever happens in this spring’s primaries. “It’s something he has to do, and I am going to go along with him,” says Judy. Which is just fine with her husband. “She works for a living,” says Howard Dean with a smile. “Somebody has to make an honest living.”
By JD Heyman, Sandra Sobieraj Westfall and Anne Driscoll in Burlington and Jane Sims Podesta in Washington, D.C.
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This is a transcript of the interview from their People.com ________________________________________________________
The following is a transcript of PEOPLE's Jan. 8, 2004, exclusive interview by JD Heyman with Howard Dean and his wife, Judith Steinberg Dean, at their home in Burlington, Vt.
Q: Are you still doing crosswords?
Howard Dean: No. I don't do crosswords. I haven't done crosswords in years.
Judy Dean: We sort of ran out of time for that.
Howard: And I hate to lose. It's a bad combination. I can't stand losing and Judy's better. We compete in Scrabble.
Judy: In Scrabble and in tennis, for a little while, until he quit (giggle).
Howard: I quit because I couldn't beat her.
Q: Do you remember the first time you saw Judy? It was when you were both in medical school.
Howard: I actually didn't see her doing the crossword. I saw her either returning or picking up a paper —
Judy: I was in the front of the classroom —
Howard: Right. In the front of the classroom.
Q: What drew your eye?
Howard: I don't know exactly. I was sitting next to a friend of mine and I just said, "That girl's adorable. Who is she?"
Judy: (laughing) That was a long time ago.
Howard: You're still adorable, dear.
Q: So what happened next?
Judy: (quietly, shyly and with a shrug) I was in the library and he asked me out. That's the short version. It was Friday afternoon — Friday afternoon, because the library closed Friday nights. It was a religious school. And um, I had a lot of friends from college and I hadn't really made any friends in medical school and I wasn't liking it that much and I just thought, Well, the next social invitation that comes along I'm just going to take it and —
Howard: Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I had spied her and I find out who she was, and I thought to myself, Well, I'm going to go into the library and if she's there, I'm going to ask her out.
Judy: And he did.
Q: What was your impression?
Judy: Howard was different. I mean in those days — that was, what, the seventies? — so everybody walked around in jeans with tears in them and T-shirts and sneakers and knapsacks. And Howie wore khaki pants or corduroys and button-down shirt and a briefcase, so it was just a little different.
Q: Did you think to yourself, 'Okay, I made this silent deal with God and this is what — so this is a little joke on you?'
Howard: (belly laugh)
Judy: No, no, no. I didn't really know him at all ,and I thought, You know, he asked me out, I'll go out and see what happens.
Q: And where was your first date?
Howard: My parents' apartment. I was living at my parents' house. I had already invited two or three friends to dinner. So, it was three friends — one woman and two men — and Judy and I. We made spaghetti. We didn't get the dinner ready till ten o'clock at night. It was pretty good. One of my friends made an incredibly bad joke. It was really ribald. And I looked at Judy and thought, if she laughs, this is a great relationship. And if she doesn't, I think this is our last date. And she did laugh, bad as the joke was — really bad. I remember it well. My son thought it was very funny, but it's not for repeating in PEOPLE magazine. You should tell 'em what you thought of me after the first date. Judy: I think when I came to the door, his friends were all dressed like I was — in jeans and sandals and they just looked more my type and I really liked his friends. And so I thought, Well, he has potential. He seemed, by the way he dressed, that he was a little different. But his friends were just like me. He walked me home, which I thought was very good.
Howard: We had a great time dating in New York. One time we went someplace in the East Village called the Cauldron. It was fantastic; great food. And it was snowing. And I mean it was really snowing. It snowed about eight inches or nine inches. And the subway comes about every half-hour and the neighborhood was not all that great anyway at one o'clock in the morning, or twelve o'clock in the morning. And of course there was no such thing as a taxi, so we walked back to 72nd Street.
Judy: Howard mostly dragged me because I was wearing nice shoes that would slip and slide every time in the snow. We walked a lot of blocks. Mostly, Howard dragged me.
Howard: It's about 70 blocks.
Q: What was the first sort of grand romantic gesture he made where you thought —
Howard: Oh, we're not telling. (laughter)
Judy: I think he's romantic. He's sentimental. Definitely sentimental.
Howard: I send flowers. ... I usually send flowers if she's done something really great or I've done something really awful. Oh! I know when's the last time — I gave you flowers, I bought you a rhododendron for your birthday. Being practical, it was in full flower and I wanted something to plant in the back lawn. So after we got done with the flower part, I put it in the back lawn. We recycle everything in this house and we recycle everything in this state. That was the one thing about being governor. I treated that state as if it was my house. The budget was always balanced.
Q: Do you do the checkbook?
Judy: Well, I pay for the heat because I like to turn the heat up. He pays for the phone calls because he's the one to talk on the phone. And so we sort of split it like that so that something I like to spend money on — like heat — that he doesn't, he doesn't see the bills. Because when he's home, he turns it way, way down and I'd get up in the morning and I was frozen.
Howard: So we fought about that for about a year and then we just figured instead of Judy yelling at me about the phone and I yell at her about the heat, she just pays the heat bill, I pay the phone bill and that's it. Problem solved.
Q: Is the phone bill your one extravagance, the thing that you're willing to spend money on without questioning it?
Howard: Oh, I have a few extravagances. Well, traveling. When the kids were little we took some great vacations. We went to Alaska, we went to Hawaii, we went to national parks out West.
Q: Do you remember the most money you ever spent on an article of clothing?
Howard: Uh, yeah. It was about 800 bucks on a suit. It almost killed me.
Q: And you fix everything around the house.
Howard: I do. I like that. That's therapy. Well, lately we've had to have a plumber because things have gotten a little more out of hand than normal. I stay out of their way. One thing I learned as governor is if you pay people to give you advice, you should take it.
Q: The JC Penney suit has been retired?
Howard: Oh, no, I still have it in the closet, waiting. It's lurking, waiting to pounce on me sometime. I wore it once during the campaign. I went to Boston. We had a really big rally and it was raining. I didn't want to wreck a really good suit and so I figured if the JC Penney suit got rained on it would just be fine. It worked great.
Q: You've said that you still want to be a doctor, you don't want to be a first lady, you want to maintain your practice. Can you talk about some of your concerns or reticence about being a traditional first lady?
Judy: I haven't really thought that far ahead. I just really like practicing medicine and I would think whatever happens I would continue to do medicine in some way. I'm not sure it would be the same kind of practice I have now. But, you know, that's what I do full-time. I really like it, and, um, I'm good at it.
Q: Could you see yourself presiding as hostess over a state dinner with world leaders and celebrities?
Judy: Well, I haven't really thought about it. I think I could probably do it — with a little help.
Q: Governor, this is your chosen path. She chose to be a doctor and by leading this life, you involve your whole family in a process that can be kind of hard and difficult. The track record of the media and the public in picking apart a first lady — their hem lines and their hairstyles and their chinaware — it can be hard to watch someone you love be exposed in that way.
Howard: I think so far, the press has been pretty decent in that way. You know, I'm very fiercely protective of the privacy of both Judy and our kids. In fact, I actually once went after the media long before I even thought about running against George Bush for their treatment of Jenna and Barbara over the (fake) ID business. I think that's off-bounds. Those kids did not choose to be the daughter of the President of the United States and my kids did not choose to be the daughter of somebody who was governor and was running for President of the United States, or the son. And that is totally off-bounds. I think the people of the country have the right to know something about Judy, particularly because she's a very important influence on me and who I am. My idea of the ground rules is that if you don't get into politics you're not in the line of fire. I actually think Judy would be a fantastic host of state dinners. The White House has a staff of people who plan all that stuff; I think she's being unduly modest. She's a wonderful conversationalist. And she's been in lots of situations — including going to the White House for two dinners where she sat next to various Cabinet officials and once sat next to the president because I was the chairman of the National Governors Association. So I have no doubt that she can do that. You know, this president doesn't do that many state dinners. I'll do more, by the way, because I think we need to improve our diplomatic situation in the world. And so I don't worry about that. And I don't think the press is going to be that interested in her hemlines because I don't think she's going to do a whole lot of interviews with people who are interested in her hemlines.
Q: When he came to you and said, "Hon, I'm going to do this," did you say, "What are you thinking?!"
Judy: I think it was pretty gradual. When we first started talking about it, I think it didn't sink in at first, but he's very smart and I just think he'd do such a good job that I think it's something he has to do and I am going to go along with him.
Q: You've mentioned that you don't give him advice on politics or policy because it's not really where your interest is. Are there any issues that you feel passionate about that you do weigh in on — whether it's the environment or health care or any policy things at all?
Judy: I have my opinions on health care from my point of view, and he probably knows what they are because we talk about them. But it's not really giving advice. So I would say no, I don't really give advice.
Howard: Judy sort of functions as my Person-in-the-Street. The best kind of advice she gives me is, "You look like an idiot on television." She wouldn't say it that way, but, "You didn't do very well on television"' I'll never forget the first time we went to a speech that I was giving on a subject I knew not much about. And on the way home, I said, "Well, how did you think I did?" and she said, "Fair to poor, with the emphasis on poor," which, I had to admit, was probably exactly right.
Q: So she doesn't pull her punches.
Howard: No. Absolutely not, and she's very helpful because of that. And I would say the way Judy influences me in policy is, first of all, in moral tone. She feels a tremendous sense of honesty, so I can't get away with anything. But the other piece is that she makes me remember what it was like to practice medicine in a small practice, and I measure a lot of health-care reform issues by what it was like when I was a doctor and all the problems that we had with Medicare and insurance companies and so forth. One of the promises I've made is that if I win, somebody's who actually practiced medicine or laid hands on patients — it could be a nurse, not a doctor — will head the agency that runs Medicare and Medicaid because I think Medicare is so badly run.
Q: Mrs. Dean, is there a first lady, either recent or in history, who you actually have admired and thought, That's how I would do the job.
Judy: I think they've all done it in different ways and I think I've admired different things about different first ladies, but it's not like I've read up on it or anything.
Q: As parents, who's the disciplinarian, the enforcer?
Judy: I think we work on it pretty much together. When the kids were growing up, I would do a lot of day-to-day stuff, make sure they had the right clothes, make sure they had school supplies and stuff like that. And Howard would take them on adventures. He'd take them out on the sunfish and he'd take them on hikes. It actually worked out to be a good combination. I think we pretty much disciplined together. He took them on more adventures.
Howard: We actually played good cop, bad cop. Of course, now they're pretty old — 17 and 19. But when they were little, uh, it would depend — one of us would be the nice person and the other one would be the tough person. But we'd alternate the roles. Sometimes I thought they should get more than they were getting and sometimes Judy would.
Q: What kind of punishment? Spanking?
Howard: Hardly, nah. I think each kid got one spanking once in their life and that was it.
Q: Anything you consciously did different than what your parents did?
Howard: One thing I promised myself I would never do that my parents did was to say, "Because I said so." Once (my daughter) Anne was at that phase where she was asking everything and no reason was good enough for why she had to do what she did. And I finally caught myself, "Because I said so," and I thought, "Oh, no! I did it." But that was pretty much the only time.
Q: You don't have cable television?
Howard: No.
Q: Do you and your kids clash over stuff like their music and taste in television?
Judy: Actually, Howard listens to their music much more than I do.
Howard: I like it. I'm a big Wyclef Jean fan. I like Outkast. Mostly, I like the stuff I grew up with and they like the stuff I grew up with, which is great. (My son) Paul loves Dylan — Bob Dylan. They both like the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel. ... And Paul's got a lot of Led Zeppelin, some of the old stuff.
Q: Is there television that they watch or stuff that you clash over? What are your rules in terms of stuff like that?
Howard: Our kids have been pretty well-behaved most their lives. We don't have big problems there. We usually just talk through whatever our differences are. And one of the reasons we don't have cable is I'd watch CNN, Paul would watch ESPN and Anne would watch MTV, and we'd never talk to each other. We thought about getting cable a few times. I would do it if everybody else in the house really wanted to. But I just think, frankly, the less television you watch as a family, the better off the family is because you don't talk to each other when you watch television. That's not to say we never watch it. Paul likes football. Before I was doing this, I loved the Friday night Washington Week in Review and all that stuff. Judy likes The West Wing.
Judy: I like it. I don't watch it that much because I don't like to turn on the TV because I think if I turn on the TV and the kids are home, they'll gravitate towards the TV. So I've only actually seen it probably five or six times, but I like it a lot.
Howard: You tape every episode.
Judy: I tape them but I haven't gotten around to watching it.
Howard: The stuff that I watch is all about news and politics.
Q: Can you remember the last sitcom you watched?
Howard: No. I'm not a sitcom guy anyway. The last sitcom I remember that I really liked a lot was All in the Family. That ought to tell you how old I am. Interestingly, in my family, when we were little, television was somewhat of a bonding experience. When we were young my father was very busy, he came home late every night and he didn't see us much. But when he came home, we'd watch The Three Stooges together, Abbott and Costello. We thought that was just terrific stuff. We'd just sit there and watch it together.
Q: So, if I were to say Queer Eye for the Straight Guy —
Howard: (rolls his eyes and gives an exasperated sigh) Ugh. I've never seen it. It's on cable, anyway. But I do know what it is.
Q: The Bachelorette, Trista and Ryan?
Howard: I have no idea what any of that stuff is. I'm a cultural philistine when it comes to that stuff. I don't like violence on television, but I'm not a crusader about it, not that either of those shows have violence on it. But I mean in general, I'm not a fan of TV. I grew up without a TV. When I grew up on Eastern Long Island, most of the time you could only get Channel 8, so all my vacations, all my weekends, all the summer, I never watched television ever. All we did — there were four of us — all we did was play outside and amuse ourselves and invent our lives. And I think every kid ought to grow up like that. And that's how we tried to raise our kids.
Judy: Our kids were so busy with their sports that they — I mean, Paul watches a lot of football and basketball on the weekends, but during the week, they basically went to school and did their sports and so they watched TV at night, but there wasn't a lot of time to watch TV at night because of their sports, basically.
Q: Do you play sports, too?
Judy: I don't do very many sports. I ride my bike in the summer a lot, but that's it. I grew up in a time where the girls didn't do much sports. Where I went to high school, they had two fields and then when they put up an addition to the high school and took away one field, the girls no longer had a field.
Howard: You were on the Princeton Track Team, what do you mean?
Judy: Track Club; it was a club. Anybody could go on. Anybody.
Howard: She's a better athlete than she's admitting. She's pretty good.
Judy: But you didn't do it in those days. I love being outside in the summer time. I like to bike, I like to jog. I don't play tennis that much any more partly because Howard doesn't like it, and partly because it's hard to fit in your schedule. Sometimes I get a sick patient at five, and sometimes I don't. So if I have a tennis game scheduled, it just doesn't work even though I love to play.
Q: What's the last movie you remember that you really liked?
Howard: A Beautiful Mind. I used to see a lot of movies on airplanes. My Big Fat Greek Wedding was great.
Q: You mentioned, Mrs. Dean, that he's sentimental. Governor, what's the last thing that made you cry?
Howard: That's a good question. Ahhh. My goodness. I don't remember. Usually, a movie wouldn't get me crying. I might have a lump in my throat, but no. I can't remember to be honest with you.
Q: You've gone through some very emotional, dramatic things in your personal life. The return of your brother's remains —
Howard: Yeah, that was tough, but there were a lot of good things that were going on there, too. It was very, very tough, but it was a great thing to get his remains home, so that was very much a mixed blessing. It was very emotional and very difficult, but it was also, there was some amount of closure there.
Q: Governor, you were quoted as saying that you felt that if your brother had lived he might be the guy running for president.
Howard: That's true. He was very charismatic, very strong leader and he basically lived what he believes. He did a lot of things for kids from the inner city in his early teens and his late teens. He was terrific.
Q: Do you feel in any way like you're doing this to fulfill something that he would have done?
Howard: You can't do that. Not this. This is too hard to do anything like that. You have to do this because you want to do it.
Q: Why do you want to do it?
Howard: The country's really headed in a bad direction and this country's the most important country in the world and for this country to be headed in a bad direction, the world's in serious trouble. I was reading the paper one day and saw something the president did that I felt was really bad for the country and I just said, "Are you going to do something about it or are you going to complain about it?" There are two things every president has to get right. One is foreign policy and the one is economic policy. We have half-trillion-dollar deficits and people don't think we're the moral leader of the world anymore. Those are two serious problems.
Q: If I can switch back to being emotional. You talked in your interview with TIME magazine's Karen Tumulty about how you learned emotional detachment when you tried to work with a 9-year-old drive-by shooting victim.
Howard: In general, when you're in medicine, I've found that, I mean, I do make a really intense emotional connection with people who are in trouble. I think that has something to do with why I went to medical school. And I remember, it was actually at Jacoby Hospital when I was doing my medical student rotation through the emergency room a nine-year-old was shot in the abdomen in a drive-by shooting. That was really hard. I mean, to see a nine-year-old fighting for his life.
Q: You talked about you felt like you were incapable of assisting him. Did you freeze up?
Howard: I don't think I exactly said that, that's what she wrote, but no, I didn't freeze up. But I discovered that my really intense emotional empathy just made it hard for me to do the things that had to be done. Now, I was a medical student, so it didn't make any difference. But I realized that if you get too close to the real trauma that people go through, you can't help them.
Q: And later, when you were having anxiety attacks in Vermont, what were those like?
Howard: It was not a big deal. I was just anxious and I didn't know why.
Q: So it wasn't a paralyzing —
Howard: No. Not a bit. I didn't miss a day of work. I didn't worry about what was going to happen. I just wasn't sure what was going on and then I traced it to my brother.
Q: Through counseling?
Howard: Yeah.
Q: Was that hard, for someone —
Howard: No, it actually was great. It was really helpful. I mean, I like that kind of stuff. I had done a lot of it — I learned a lot about it in medical school. I had done some during my psychiatry rotations, so it was actually a terrific experience. It wasn't easy. You've got to work and you've got to uncover things that matter to you. And of course, we talked a lot about my father and all that other stuff.
Q: Was it just talking it through or were you ever medicated?
Howard: No. It was just anxiety.
Q: Well, today, you say the word "anxiety" and there are eight or nine different anti-anxiety drugs —
Howard: I'm not a big fan of most anti-anxiety drugs, just because they have addiction potential and things like that. You know, once in a while, I take stuff for sleep. That makes sense. But, listen, I don't want to dispense medical advice in PEOPLE magazine. The anti-anxiety drugs are very good for people who —
Judy: And a lot of them are NOT addictive these days.
Howard: Right. And you know anti-anxiety drugs and sleep drugs were essentially the same thing when I was practicing. And my experience was whenever I took a sleeping pill, there would be rebound insomnia and so I didn't like to take them.
Q: And since then, it was as if you went in, you took care of the problem and that has never been a problem since?
Howard: No. That was in the early eighties.
Q: It sounds as if you had a little bit of an anxiety attack when you got the word that you were now governor.
Howard: I did. I hyperventilated and I started hyperventilating and I thought, You better stop that or you won't be much good to anybody.
Q: Has that happened since, or before?
Howard: No.
Q: Why was that such a —
Howard: To suddenly get told that you have responsibility for 600,000 people — it provokes a little anxiety.
Q: But now you're asking for responsibility for 250 million and then, the global reach of the U.S. presidency. That doesn't provoke a little anxiety?
Howard: No. I mean, I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't — first of all, I think everybody has a little anxiety when they approach a job like that. But I think that over my life, I've made hard decisions about people who could die if I made the wrong decision. I've made decisions that have helped people to live who were about to die. I've seen a lot of people die, which nobody could do much about and for 11 years, I made decisions about all the things that presidents have to make decisions about — who gets what in the budget, things like security issues after 9/11, like my own security. So when you're used to making tough decisions, you know you have to make the tough decisions. The key to making tough decisions is to make it, not sit around and agonize about it.
Q (to Judy): How about your anxiety level? This is a wonderful life that you've made for yourself here. You're on the brink of enormous change. Do you get anxious about what that means for your family, your children?
Judy: I'm not a very anxious person. I just take it day-by-day and figure whatever will happen, will happen. I would not choose to be a political person, but I really believe that Howard would do a great job as president. He's a very smart, very honest, very giving person and I think it's worth it and I figure I'll deal with whatever comes up in the next few months. But right now, day to day, I keep doing what I'm normally doing. The other thing is that our children will be out of high school and that does make a difference, in terms of thinking about how it will effect them. I mean of course it will effect them, but it would effect them a lot more if they were still at home.
Q: Will Paul be following in the Yale family tradition? Howard: We don't know. We'll find out — April 16 or whatever it is.
Q: So there was no Princeton-Yale debate?
Judy: We took them down to Princeton. I loved Princeton. I just loved every moment of it. It was like living on a country club, you know, they treated you royally. But we went to visit, we took both kids to visit when Anne was looking at colleges. They stepped out and they just did not like it at all. They just did not like it. They loved Yale.
Howard: See, my theory is that the reason the kids didn't like Princeton was because it was kind of suburban and so forth and so on, and they lived in Burlington all their lives and they wanted a more urban place. That's why I didn't go to Princeton. I didn't go to Princeton because I had gone to a prep school for four years and I thought it was very prep-school-like.
Q: You sounded like a little bit of a troublemaking kid. What's the worst trouble you got into?
Howard: I'm sure I misbehaved, but I didn't get caught. (pause) Well, I got into plenty of trouble but I'm not talking about it. We're not doing youthful indiscretions. The worst trouble I ever got into with my father that I remember was that I told the sixth grade teacher that I left my homework at home when, in fact, I hadn't done it. And my father was very active in the affairs of the school and so he had gone to the school that I went to for some reason and he ran into my sixth-grade teacher. And my father, of course, being very smart also, figured that there was a little more to the story and so he asked me if I had done my homework and where was it. Well, of course, I didn't have it because I hadn't done it and I get home, I lied to him and that got me in an enormous amount of trouble.
Q: That was the worst?
Howard: Lying to your father's a big thing, a bad thing. Seriously. The standard punishment in my house was a very large fine. The biggest one you could ever get was $5, but in those days it was an enormous amount of money for kids who got 25 cents a week in their allowance.
Q: Do you give your children an allowance?
Howard: We do, but we're not telling you any details about that.
Q: Were you both active in Planned Parenthood in Burlington?
Judy: We both worked there, while we were residents, but I wouldn't call it active.
Howard: And no, neither of us ever did an abortion.
Q: Why do you say it that way?
Howard: Because I always get asked that.
Q: Why didn't you perform abortions?
Howard: Because we don't do them. They don't train residents to do that.
Judy: When we were residents, we were working there basically to get GYN experience because you don't generally do it on hospitalized patients. And then you start to have a practice without having a lot of GYN experience.
Q: Do you have a moral opposition to performing the procedure? I mean, you're both physicians, you at some point —
Howard: I think that's a private matter between the physician and the patient. I don't have a moral problem, but neither of us is trained to do abortions. We're both internists. Internists don't do abortions. ... It would be malpractice if we did.
Q: Would you do them if you'd had the training?
Howard: I've learned long ago not to answer hypothetical questions like that. Both of us chose internal medicine, so we never had to make that choice. I firmly believe in the right to choose. This is a private matter between a doctor and a patient. It's none of the government's business.
Q: Can I ask you about another kind of hot-button issue that's topical now? You signed the civil unions legislation behind closed doors.
Howard: That part of it is true.
Q: How comfortable are you with homosexuality on a personal level? Do you have gay friends?
Howard: Interestingly enough, I wasn't very comfortable at the time. I didn't sign the bill because I knew anybody who was gay, but I'm sure, of course, I did know some people who were gay. But I signed the bill because I think everybody deserves equal rights under the law. I've since gotten to know a lot of gay people because, since I was the first governor to do that, I got a lot of speaking engagements, we had a lot of friends — or I have a lot of friends who are gay, or lesbian. And the truth is that gay Americans are just like everybody else. Ninety-five percent of the things they want are the things everybody else wants — a decent education, job opportunities, health care, they're worried about Iraq. They come in all sizes from conservative Republicans to liberal Democrats. The gay community is like every other community. There's no one point of view. Any community — whether it's the African-American community, or the Jewish community, or name any community you want — once you learn about the community you find out that there's many, many different opinions and there's no such stereotype of any group — and that includes gay and lesbian Americans.
Q: What helped you get comfortable with it?
Howard: Getting to know people. That's actually what got the bill passed. The people who were most effective in getting the bill passed were the parents and friends of lesbian and gay kids. These people who had gay kids went to the legislators and said, 'Hey look, my kid turned out to be gay. I still love him. What would you do if your kid turns out to be gay?' Well if somebody you know says that to you, you start to think about that.
Q: Do you feel like you're at the point now where if one of your children came to you and said, 'I'm gay — Howard: That wouldn't make a difference to me at all.
Q: What if they wanted to get married?
Howard: Well, they'd have to go to Canada.
Q: Underlying the idea that there's some sanctity between a man and a woman in marriage is that there's something wrong, then, about a man and a man, or a woman and a woman.
Howard: I think as governor, or as president, my obligation is to make sure everybody has equal rights under the law, which is what we did. The reason I signed the bill behind closed doors was because the state was in a horrendous — you ought to talk to Sue about it was like at the time, because she was the press secretary — it was horrendous. There were threats, there were hateful people coming in from out of state making outrageous statements. It was a very, very difficult time. I thought it was my job as governor to have a healing process. It was six months before I ran for reelection for my fifth term. I spent my time going around explaining to people why I believed it was important to have equal rights under the law for every single American. Actually, this experience was one of the things that led me to decide to run for president. Because I realized that if you stood up for what you believed in, even if a majority of the voters didn't agree with you, you could still win by being very clear that this is what you thought the right thing to do was. And that part of my responsibility as a political leader is to sometimes do things the voters don't agree with if I believe in them and then convince voters this was the right thing to do. I think today in Vermont, most people support civil unions they don't think it's a big deal.
Q: When people say your husband has a temper —
Judy: I think that's crazy. I really do. I look up and say, Where does this come from? Because he's not like that. He does not lose his temper. He's very considerate. And he forgives everything, always, easily. There's this one thing I did which was pretty bad, which he forgave quickly and forever.
Q: Which was —
Judy: I can't say.
Howard: You can tell that. That's not too bad.
Judy: No, no.
Howard: Alright.
Judy: We both love each other and we're just not the fighting type.
Q: Are you the dancing type?
Judy: Howard's the dancing type. He'll come and swing me around. He loves dancing. I'm not a dancer at all.
Q: Is there a silly, playful, affectionate side, like if you're cooking does he come up behind you with a tickle or something?
Howard: Certainly we're not going to discuss THAT! Judy: I don't cook.
Q: I read where you get up at 4 a.m. sometimes —
Howard: No that's not true. I actually lie awake in bed at 4 a.m. I try not to disturb anybody. I learned a long time ago, do not get out of bed and start to work because you'll never go back to sleep. Usually, if I wake up early like that I think about stuff for a while and then I go back to sleep.
Q: You sound like a bit of an insomniac.
Howard: I am a little bit of an insomniac.
Q: What do you like to cook?
Howard: Pancakes. Chocolate-chip pancakes. The kids love 'em.
Judy: We cook chicken, broccoli, potatoes, but neither of us is a good cook and neither of us really likes to cook. We just don't have very exciting dishes. We're not very fussy about what we eat. We're not good cooks. We'd just eat the meals that are there.
Q: What do you LOVE to eat? What's your favorite indulgence? Your favorite thing? Junk —
Howard: I like fish.
Q: Fish??
Judy: I can cook fish.
Howard: That's probably our most frequent family dinner — fish, broccoli and a baked potato.
Q: I gather on the campaign plane you've been teased lately for putting on a few pounds lately.
Howard: I tease myself. I'm not very happy about it. When I don't sleep, I eat. ... There have been some studies that show that things like chocolate and ice cream, which I don't generally eat very much any more, lower stress. So if you don't get enough sleep and you're highly stressed, eating bad things reduces your stress. Every campaign, I've always gained weight. I've gotten much better in the last couple of weeks. I've really made an effort to stop all that stuff. But I have a horrible weakness for chocolate chip cookies. And now my supporters have figured that out, so once a day somebody will come up with a big bag of chocolate chip cookies that, of course, I delve into at once.
Judy: I actually do make chocolate chip cookies; they're easy to make.
Q: With nuts or without?
Judy: Usually without, because it's just one extra step. But I like 'em with nuts. I actually made them for the campaign office. One of my very few contributions. They're definitely not fussy about what they eat.
Q: Religion has been a thing lately that you've been asked a lot about lately and you say that you don't go to church or services but you do pray every night. What kinds of things do you pray for?
Howard: That's private.
Q: But are they like world peace kind of things or that we win the hockey championships?
Howard: Nothing like that.
Q: Do you have guns in your home?
Howard: Nope. We have a murder rate between 5 and 25 homicides a year here. I support the assault weapons ban and background checks and all that. But my experience as the governor of a rural state has led me to believe that the best way to deal with guns is to enforce the federal laws vigorously and then let each state make additional laws that they want to.
Q: Do you hunt?
Howard: No.
Q: Have you ever fired a gun?
Howard: Oh, yeah. When I was a kid, my father used to take me hunting.
Q: You don't have any interest in that now?
Howard: I don't have the time.
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Does anyone else have a difficult time believing he still fits in the suit? Anyone have a 16 year old picture of him?
Also, he's so "thrifty," but was willing to pay for therapy. It sounds like it was pretty serious to bring him to therapy.
Dean was paid $103,147 in his last year as governor. (as provided in the Vermont statutes).
Not only does Dean have emotional problems, it is obvious that he has eyesight problems too!"
...and that some person or persons unknown paid for it.
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