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To: Only1choice____Freedom
The Pope today is the same as Peter who was the first Pope after Christ.
There is nothing similar at all about it.

Martin Luther was not given the "authority" of the church as Christ gave Peter and his successors.
14 posted on 01/20/2004 9:30:23 PM PST by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy
The Pope today is the same as Peter who was the first Pope after Christ.

There is nothing similar at all about it.

huh?

Martin Luther was not given the "authority" of the church as Christ gave Peter and his successors

Actually he was and so has every Disciple. In Mt 18:18 he gave them all authority. In John 20:23 he granted ALL of them authority not just Peter.

Even if that were not true, what you are saying is that Peter's descendants did not choose to directly breathe the spirit to Martin. How do you know for sure? I have read quite a lot about Martin Luther and it sure seems to me he had the Holy Spirit in his life. A lot of miracles happened for God's glory. Were they all counterfeit? I suppose it it possible, but Jesus says in the same way you know a tree by what fruit it bears, so they who profess to be of Christ shall be seen by their deeds.

I suppose then all the evangleists roaming the earth baptising Christians are wasteing their time unless they have the blessing of the Pope? I know that's not the case as I have heard many miricles coming from those areas of the world.

16 posted on 01/20/2004 10:39:27 PM PST by Only1choice____Freedom (The word system implies they have done something the same way at least twice)
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To: A CA Guy
The Pope today is the same as Peter who was the first Pope after Christ.

I know when you get into theological arguments, no one wins, but here is my two cents...

My understanding on the source of the Catholic doctrine for the infallibility of the Pope, and the direct line of succession from Peter, stems from the following passage of Scripture:

"13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ,br> 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[4] in heaven."
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

A few problems that I have with using this passage for such a doctrine. First Christ called him Peter (petros), meaning a small stone, while He said he would build His Church on a rock (petra), meaning large rock or boulder. The rock referred to was the revelation of the truth that Jesus was the Christ. God would never build His Church on any man other than Christ, because all other men are sinful and fallible.

I understand that verse 19 is also used to argue for the authority of the Pope to declare things sinful, etc. The problem for me is that, when you look at the original Greek, the meaning is very different. The first usage of the word "you" ("give you the keys") is indeterminate as to the number of people He is addressing - is He giving the keys to Peter, or to all of the apostles? And the other usages of the word "you" ("whatsoever you bind") actually should be translated as "that is". So the correct translation of the verse would be:

And I will give you (or all of you) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever that is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever that is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven."

You may, of course, feel free to continue to believe in the infallibility of the Pope, and in the direct line of succession from Peter, but to me, the Scriptural basis is very weak. And I don't think our salvation will be determined by that point, unless of course the Pope were to command something that is opposed to God's word and you obeyed. Then that might be a problem.

22 posted on 01/21/2004 10:48:22 AM PST by CA Conservative
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