Couple demands halt to neighbor's smoking

Akron Beacon Journal ^ | 1/23/04 | Phil Trexler

[mylife]

Couple demands halt to neighbor's smoking Restraining order sought over nuisance to health By Phil Trexler Beacon Journal staff writer

Robert Zangrando has had it up to his chest, nose and eyes with his neighbor's smoking and he's taking her to court to get her to quit.

Zangrando, a retired University of Akron history professor who lives in Stow, was in Summit County court Thursday with his wife and lawyer.

Together they are seeking a restraining order against his next-door neighbor, Nicole Kuder, 28, that would prohibit her from smoking outdoors within 30 feet of her condominium.

Zangrando, 71, and his wife, UA instructor Lisa A. Pace, contend the smoking affects their health and has become a nuisance.

Before the hearing, Kuder said, ``I have tried to accommodate them, and this is the result.''

The couple's attorney, Ed Gilbert, called the situation an emergency and wanted Common Pleas Judge Marvin Shapiro to rule immediately on the restraining order request. Shapiro declined because Kuder came to court without an attorney.

Akron attorney Tom Adgate was retained by Kuder just before the hearing and was unable to attend. Shapiro delayed ruling until the hearing resumes Tuesday with Kuder and her attorney.

Kuder and Zangrando have been neighbors in a condominium complex on Higby Drive for about two years. Their two-story units are separated only by a shared wall. They share a front porch, and a wooden fence separates their back doors.

Zangrando said his neighbor's cigarette smoking is apparent whenever he opens a window or steps outside his home. He said the fumes compromise his health, causing him to wheeze and cough.

He said he suffers from lung problems, including emphysema, and has had asthma in the past. He said the smoking is such that he is reluctant to let his dog or two cats outside.

``It hits you right away, the minute you walk out the door. It catches me, I start coughing, I know she's smoking, I can see she's smoking visually, and I can get the effects of the smoke when I inhale what should be fresh air in my own back patio,'' Zangrando told the judge.

Kuder rents the condo she and her family live in and is not permitted to smoke inside the unit. Zangrando and Pace have owned their unit since marrying in 1996.

``It's a constant reality. She's out there smoking, and I have been appealing to her since she first moved: Please, if you're going smoke, would you move away from the house because the fumes come in our house, and we no longer have discretionary use of our house,'' Zangrando told the judge.

He said he has tried for more than a year to convince Kuder to smoke elsewhere, to no avail. He said he tried to reach an agreement in October, but Kuder and her husband, who does not smoke, refused to sign.

Kuder said Zangrando wanted her to walk to a nearby parking lot to smoke. She said he snoops on her, photographs her movements and has yelled at her to ``go, kill my family'' with her cigarettes.

``I tried to be nice and go out back and compromise, but they constantly harass us,'' Kuder said outside court. ``There have been times when I've had friends over, and he comes out screaming at us. It bothers me, but at the same time, I try to be a respectful smoker.''

[Gabz]

Plus, the nature of statistical analysis is such that we may never know which individuals died from the cause stated, only that there were excess deaths in a particular group.

This is true - but none of the statistical analysis you have used to defend your position is statistically significant.

To show statistical significance of increased risk there must be an RR of at least 2.00, and most reliable epidemiologists prefer one of 3.00.

An example of junk science being used in the area of SHS exposure is the EPA's declaration of it being a class a carcinogen for lung cancer because their studies show an increased risk of 19% (rr=1.19), however the EPA considers the increased risk of 65% (rr=1.65) for lung cancer from drinking whole milk to be statistically insignificant.

And BTW, the EPA did no studies, they did a meta-analysis of already done studies and still needed to shift the confidence level from the scientific standard of 95% to 90% in order to even show the insignificant level of 19%.

In the end it all boils down to the fact that correlation does NOT equal causation.

[JoJo Gunn]

This is why I personally say that, like UFO's, "intellectuals" don't exist unless you believe they do.

Throughout history there's always been a distrust of intelligent people who have no control of their darker side, and of the misuse of science.

Here in our faces is a textbook example of why.

[CSM]

"This is true - but none of the statistical analysis you have used to defend your position is statistically significant."

How dare you question the elitist data! You know that smoking has damaged your brain to the point that you can never get to an appropriate intellectual level to understand mathematical data.

[CSM]

"What is the highest formal training in mathematics you have had?"

I have formal undergraduate training. I have also had formal training for my job. I have not had any grad level training. This doesn't preclude me from recognizing invalid studies and invalid claims.

"We would only expect to see the one-to-one correlation you describe if smoking were the only cause of birth defects. No one has ever made that claim. The reality here is that a lot of things change over time."

Has there been any noticable decline in birth defects over the period of time that has seen a 50% reduction in smoking? I don't think there is any data available that would show a decline, so a blanket statement that it causes birth defects is false. It is a guess not a fact.

"I provided the link as part of an answer. You lept to conclusions on my position on prenatal health care."

So which is it, do you believe their claims or not? You can't say that the link provides rock solid data on one point then not support their other points. If you discount any of their other claims then you can't use the claims regarding SHS and birth defects.

"According to our concept of law, my having to encounter the nuisance that smokers leave behind is harm and I am allowed to seek relief."

Yep. That is one of the biggest problems in our society. That exact attitude is what has led us to the litigous lottery court system that we have today. Thanks for your help in promoting that attitude.

[CSM]

Thanks. It is quite amazing that with all of this "formal training" the ability to use logic has been eliminated.

[FLAMING DEATH]

"Who says she has to smoke at all?"

SHE does, because it is her body, her health, and she can do with it as she wishes.

"The guy's got major lung issues. It doesn't take much to set them off. This is something I can attest to personally -- if your lungs are already "twitchy" from something else, cigarette smoke can really shut you down."

I fail to understand how having an illness requires the rest of the world to accomodate your every whim. If you can't tolerate the behavior of others, stay away from them (or, move away from them).

[Paved Paradise]

Good one. Loved it.

[Paved Paradise]

That's my point. I'm sitting in my own car but their smoke is wafting downwind into my car. I have no sympathy for these addicts. Smoking is a horrible addiction. If all these smokers were smoking cigars, many of you would be having a fit. No human being should have to be near these people. Their right to smoke does not override my right to breathe fresh air. I'd love to see how King Solomon would have solved this dilemma. My opinion is the following - when you have a situation where someone's health may be affected, the individual who is committing the offensive act - whether that be wearing perfume, smoking, flatulence, etc., the perpetrator should cease or leave the area, out of courtesy and consideration. The person who is not shouldn't have to do anything. If I want to enjoy a walk in the park and sit on a park bench, then you better not come sit next to me and smoke a cig. What about my right to bop you right in the nose.

[CSM]

"I'm sitting in my own car but their smoke is wafting downwind into my car."

Your car is spewing smelly unhealthy fumes that I find repulsive. I demand that you give up driving!

"If all these smokers were smoking cigars, many of you would be having a fit."

Not true at all. If the owner of the property allows cigars to be smoked, then I either decide to remain or I decide to vacate the property. If someone in the car in front of me is smoking a cigar, I may catch a whiff but it wouldn't bother me at all.

"Their right to smoke does not override my right to breathe fresh air. I'd love to see how King Solomon would have solved this dilemma."

Where is this supposed right to breath fresh air? Based on that justification we would have to ban a lot more activities besides smoking. Are you willing to give up your car? King Solomon would have realised that the choice is not the smoker's or the non-smoker's. He would have left the choice to the property owner.

"My opinion is the following - when you have a situation where someone's health may be affected, the individual who is committing the offensive act - whether that be wearing perfume, smoking, flatulence, etc., the perpetrator should cease or leave the area, out of courtesy and consideration."

Then no one will have to ever learn to be tolerant of their neighbors. Wonderful, why don't we issue a bubble to each citizen so we don't have to come into contact with the outside world. Ya know, many things "may" affect our health. By your reasoning, a seafood restaurant should be prepared to remove all of their shellfish when someone with an allergy to shellfish arrive at their establishment. Most people, excluding people like you, would realize that if they are allergic to shellfish then it is smart for them to not go to a seafood restaurant.

"If I want to enjoy a walk in the park and sit on a park bench, then you better not come sit next to me and smoke a cig. What about my right to bop you right in the nose."

How very totalitarian of you. You promote causing actual harm to someone for their participation in a legal activity that "may" affect your health.

You just keep on taking the stance that you are somehow entitled to breath clean air in your car while you are filling the world with carbon monoxide.

I would wager that you also believe in global warming.

[Dawgreg]

Ditto JoJo........some people just look for things to bitch about...........why can't this clod keep his windows shut? or better yet...........quit inhaling...*~*

[LisaMalia]

I'm sitting in my own car but their smoke is wafting downwind into my car.

I thought you were meaning, in the scenerio, that you were *in* a car with a smoker. Are you actually saying that you are bothered by smoke from someone driving in another car? What are these drivers doing, hanging their arms out the window with their cigarette in hand?

[Paved Paradise]

Didn't you ever notice how smokers will blow the smoke out of their car window, hold their hand, with the cigarette, out the window; and of course, the topper: when they are done, they fling their butt out the window? My gosh - I see it ALL the time - ALL the time - I also live on a main road and if I got paid for every butt, I'd be closing in on Bill Gates' financial status. Start looking and you'll see. Maybe you live in a town where you have a lot of yuppies but I'm in a city with a lot of blue collar workers and we have a high volume of cigarette smokers (my apologies to all the nice blue collar non-smokers).

[Paved Paradise]

As far as I'm concerned, you should be soon up for a Darwin Award.

[BlueLancer]

"If I want to enjoy a walk in the park and sit on a park bench, then you better not come sit next to me and smoke a cig. What about my right to bop you right in the nose."

Well, bring it on down here to Fort Hood, tough guy. The parks here are filled with smoking soldiers and their families. There ought to be about just enough left of you to send home in a baggie.

"...but I'm in a city with a lot of blue collar workers..."

Awww, poor baby. Is you all upset because you have to be slumming with us uncivilized peons? Is your condo in Beverly Hills being renovated to have this situation forced on you or are have you just stepped down socially in researching your latest movie about the deplorable living conditions of the downtrodden peasants and how they can be taught enlightenment by such a superior being as yourself?

[JoJo Gunn]

Can't help but notice how this moron is such a Catastrophe Thinker. Everything's "horrible" and "terrible", blah blah.

I bet it paces the floor all day long, looking for something to worry about. Living in and accepting the imperfect here and now is beyond the reach of control freaks.

And isn't it amazing how a joyrider doing it's part to contribute to pollution can smell smoke blowing in it's face at, say, 50 miles an hour? Such a sensitive sort indeed.

I'm sure it thanks it's lucky stars it found this thread. Such horror. It got the knot in it's stomach it sought. It found the adrenaline fix it desperately needs.

Oh well, we all have our vices.

[LisaMalia]

Didn't you ever notice how smokers will blow the smoke out of their car window, hold their hand, with the cigarette, out the window; and of course, the topper: when they are done, they fling their butt out the window? My gosh - I see it ALL the time - ALL the time - I also live on a main road and if I got paid for every butt, I'd be closing in on Bill Gates' financial status. Start looking and you'll see. Maybe you live in a town where you have a lot of yuppies but I'm in a city with a lot of blue collar workers and we have a high volume of cigarette smokers (my apologies to all the nice blue collar non-smokers).

Have I noticed people blowing cigarette out of their car windows? No, I haven't. I'd probably run my car off the road if I actually saw somebody stick their head out of a car window every time they take a puff and exhale.

As to your next issue, the town nearest to me has factories, the biggest of which is the Mead Corporation. Lots of "blue collar workers", one of them was was my dad. He sweated through alot of days (40 years worth) in that "blue collar shirt" and put food on the table for 5 of us kids. If not for these "blue collar workers", and the taxes their companies generate, the city would have gone down the crapper financially, years ago.

[tdadams]

It was in the summer and he and I grilled hamburgers, steaks, pork chops, what have you, just about 7 nights a week. We lived in a townhouse with one neighbor [who] actually called the local police to complain that we were stinking up her yard with our grill.

I knew someone else would have a story like this and beat me to it. I had a friend who lived in an apartment complex, right next door to a highly political and bellicose vegetarian.

Every time he grilled out, this hag of a woman would come outside, get right up in his face and confrontational about it, telling him he was stinking up the outdoors with the smell of roasting meat (THE HORRORS!). She did this to several other neighbors.

We mostly thought this was amusing, but after repeated incidents of this, he eventually got a court summons. She sued him and several other neighbors claiming that his grilling was emanating "offensive odors" and causing her "grave and permanent psychological trauma" which was "affecting her quality of life" and "diminishing her capacity" to lead a productive life and earn a living.

It was the most convoluted legal fluffery I'd ever seen. She had her day in court and the judge raked her, and her attorney, over the coals for insulting the intelligence of the court.

[JoJo Gunn]

I read your post and I have visions of these twits trying to survive amongst their fellows in the caveman days.

No Ninth Circuses then. Might have ended up on the roasting spit themselves.

[Paved Paradise]

I have nothing against blue collar - it's just that statistically speaking, the higher educated people are, the numbers go down for smoking. Not sure why totally, but it's a fact. Also, I forgot to mention that people have the right to have sexual intercourse also, but I wouldn't want that done in front of me either - some things should be done AWAY from other people and children and smoking is one of them.

God Bless your dad. I admire the working people in this world and I do not hold any kind of elitist view toward them as other people I have seen. In fact, many of them, in my opinion, are much more interesting with varied interests and hobbies unlike the boring corporate types I've spent my whole life with who golf and boat and all do the same boring things.

[Paved Paradise]

You are reading way more into this. I'm just stating the fact that statistically speaking this group of people tend to have more smokers - it's just a fact - no bias or unkind thoughts meant.

As for the soldiers smoking - I don't care if they are soldiers or not, they shouldn't be blowing their smoke in other people's faces. I have a lot of respect for our fighting men and women.

By the way, smartie pants, I'm a gal not a guy and my great, great (etc.) granddaddy fought in the this country's revolutionary war just so I can be here and tell you off. I'm a member of the DAR and I am a proud and patriotic American. I just think that smokers shouldn't be allowed to smoke near other people - I didn't say they can't smoke - just not around me or my kids or my grandkids (when they are born).

P.S. I love you too.