The Diesel Submarine Threat

Fox News Live ^ | 1/28/04 | Sherry Sontag

[Rebelbase]

Fox news has Sherry Sontag on the tube, the author of Blind Man's Bluff, a book about Cold War submarine espionage.

Sontag is saying that the US has lost the ability to track shallow water diesel/electric subs, therefore its a threat.

She advocates creating a diesel/electric fleet for use in training our nuke subs in how to find and track the electrics.

Whats the deal? I thought our nuke boats could track anything?

[Rebelbase]

????????

[The Dude Abides]

Male cow excrement alert.

[Born Conservative]

Who's Sherry Sontag?

[Orangedog]

If the diesel/electric subs make noise, our sonar systems can track them. If our systems can follow the sound a whales they can certainly track non-nuclear subs.

[js1138]

It's not lost. I left it lying around here somewhere.

[Technogeeb]

She advocates creating a diesel/electric fleet for use in training our nuke subs in how to find and track the electrics

It would be a lot cheaper just to keep having joint exercises with any of our various allies that have diesel-electrics (type 209 variants or whatever).

Tracking modern subs in shallower water is pretty tough, but building a new class of non-nuke boats just to get more practice is a silly idea.

[Bottom_Gun]

As a Retired Submarine Sonarman, I can tell you we can track diesels. This was with systems of the 80's and 90's. the newer systems are better at this then the olders ones too. I know this after working research and development in ASW weapons systems, after getting out, for a few years.

now that being said...crew training is another thing. these skills being highy "perishable" even if the system can do it, operators in real time without constant training on it will make it very difficult to do.

[capt. norm]

This reminds me of the plot to the movie "Down Periscope". Kelset Grammer plays the skipper of a diesel sub that has to elude nuke subs to prove a point for a seasoned admiral.

In the movie, he succeeds. Maybe they have seen this movie and bought into the idea.

[Rebelbase]

She wrote this book:

http://www.historyofmilitary.com/Blind_Mans_Bluff_The_Untold_Story_of_American_Submarine_Espionage_006103004X.html

[Tallguy]

She advocates creating a diesel/electric fleet for use in training our nuke subs in how to find and track the electrics.

Why not just schedule exercises against the Aussie's and their Collins-class

diesel-electrics. Oh yeah, I forgot, we're already doing that, and the Aussies managed to 'sink' one of our LA-class attack boats.

[HamiltonJay]

Well it wasn't just a Diesel sub in the movie, it was a retired WWII sub if I am not mistaken.

[NYFriend]

I'm not looking for details, but when a diesel is running on batteries does the noise it makes differ that much from a nuclear sub?

[templar]

now that being said...crew training is another thing. these skills being highy "perishable" even if the system can do it, operators in real time without constant training on it will make it very difficult to do.

What is the difference between tracking nuclear and diesel subs? I need a very simple answer since I have no knowelege of the technology or terminology.

[Jack Black]

I love subs! Let me put a vote in for the Kobra at Pier 19 in Seattle as a great tourist attraction in that city. It is a soviet sub that some people bought right after the fall of the commies. It was decommissioned and sitting on a river bottom. They pumped it out and towed it to the west coast. It's great fun. I've also seen the subs in Portland (OMSI), San Francisco, Chicago (museum of science and industry). Anybody know others. I'd love to get on a nuke sub, but haven't found a tour yet.

[kenth]

WTH? Can't track diesel subs? Have the third worlders devised some sort of silent diesel fleet? She wants the U.S. Navy to jump back fifty years to track a diesel sub? Even if we had trouble, couldn't nuke sonarmen and equipment be trained to track diesels? One more question for this silly woman, why am I continuing to waste questions on you?

[Oberon]

but building a new class of non-nuke boats just to get more practice is a silly idea.

Un-mothballing some old deisel-electrics isn't a bad idea, though.

[Non-Sequitur]

Un-mothballing some old deisel-electrics isn't a bad idea, though.

We don't have any in mothballs. They were scrapped years ago.

[Tallguy]

Can't track diesel subs? Have the third worlders devised some sort of silent diesel fleet? She wants the U.S. Navy to jump back fifty years to track a diesel sub?

The problem, as I understand it, is that 'shallow waters' are very 'noisy' environments. Add to that, the fact that a diesel-electric will probably shut everything down and just 'sit on the bottom' and wait for a nuke to come trolling by. Blamo! The tactic basically converts a cheap sub into a 'smart minefield'.

A good Sonarman apparently now has to listen for the "hole in the water", since some subs now emit less noise than their immediate surroundings.

[Tallguy]

Un-mothballing some old deisel-electrics isn't a bad idea, though.

They are either man-made reefs or razor blades by now...

[Non-Sequitur]

What is the difference between tracking nuclear and diesel subs? I need a very simple answer since I have no knowelege of the technology or terminology.

Passive sonar technology relies on the noise your opposition is putting out. Screw noise, pump noise, miscellaneous machinery noise, water flow over protrusions in the hull, all allow you to detect the enemy. Diesel submarines using batteries to drive electric motors at low speeds can be extremely quiet.