The Diesel Submarine Threat

Fox News Live ^ | 1/28/04 | Sherry Sontag

[Atlantic Friend]

Quite so. The US Navy could also buy one German-made Type 209 diesel boat, and one French Agosta/Scorpene, since these boats are among the most common, and play with them in "Aggressor squadron" type drills...

[B-Chan]

Down Periscope is a surprisingly good movie.

[texas booster]

I wouldn't mind if we bought a couple of diesel-electric subs from Germany or Sweden to use for coastal defense.

Cheap to keep, cheap to run and cheap to train crews on.

[Atlantic Friend]

Dunno. Could it be the diesel subs, that are usually little boats when compared to their US nuclear counterparts, would have some advantage over them in shallow water ?

[El Gran Salseron]

"I'm not looking for details, but when a diesel is running on batteries does the noise it makes differ that much from a nuclear sub?"

A good sonarman, ( as I used to be, :-) ) can discern easily between a diesel boat and a nuke.....a piece of cake.

Most assuredly! A diesel boat, when running on batteries and goes to Silent Running has only screw, ( propeller, ) noise and other low-noise machinery, most of which is shut down so that they get as quiet as possible. Also, the screw/s of a our submarines are custom manufactured, machine and honed to be as quiet as possible.

The problem with nukes is the steam engine. It gives a definite sound signature that is unmistakable. That is why there is extensive study of "coating" the entire hull with rubber for noise reduction. The plus side is that the nuke can go deeper, find "layers" and get under them.

The former Soviet Union has built nukes with rubber coating. The "coating" looks much like the heat-resistant shields on the shuttle. They are attached to the hull in small squares and each one is custom made to go on a certain spot on the boat.

The hope is that the diesel boat will eventually have to go on snorkel to recharge batteries. Then she can be heard for miles and miles and miles.

[balrog666]

I've also seen the subs in Portland (OMSI), San Francisco, Chicago (museum of science and industry). Anybody know others. I'd love to get on a nuke sub, but haven't found a tour yet.

The USS Drum is in Mobile Bay next to the USS Alabama but that's a long way from you.

[Little Ray]

She's right. Sorta.
Diesels running on batteries are quieter than nukes and have a lower IR signature (I've heard that satellites can sometimes track nuke boats from their heat). However, they have a limited endurance on electric power, and are much slower than nuke boats.

Eventually D/Es have to come up and snorkel. This involves running their diesel engine near the surface. The snorkel pulls in air for the diesel and emits exhaust gas. The diesel is noisier than a nuke, and the exhaust gas is hotter; also, the snorkel can be picked up by surface search radar.

There may be some non-diesel power plants that work. I have heard of power plants that run on hydrogen peroxide and others than run on liquid oxygen. These may be quieter than conventional diesels.

D/E are essentially mobile, intelligent minefields, good for defense, but limited on the offense.

[Rebelbase]

"and the Aussies managed to 'sink' one of our LA-class attack boats."

Ouch! You know the guys on the American boat will never hear the end of that one.

[El Gran Salseron]

"If our systems can follow the sound a whales they can certainly track non-nuclear subs."

The sounds of a "singing" whale are a lot louder than a diesel boat on batteries.

[CJ Wolf]

And our jets can't find or shoot down crop dusters and other low flying prop planes let alone blimps.

[hchutch]

I've read the book she did, but in this case she is wrong for two reasons.

One, we have the best ASW operators in the world. Two, the SURTASS LFA system is going to come online after surviving the court battles brought by the environmentalists.

Between those two systems, I have all the confidence in the world that diesel-electric and the newer air-independent propulsion submarines will be of little concern - even in shallow water.

[michaelt]

Some countries' (Sweden, Germany?, probably others) newest diesel subs have Air Independent Propulsion units. They don't need to snorkel as much (or at all).

[FormerlyAnotherLurker]

Unfortunately, after essentially abandoning ASW after the collapse of the USSR, the world’s navies – the US Navy in the forefront -- find themselves ill-equipped to counter the explosive growth in the Third World fleet of stealthy, fourth generation diesel-electric subs like the U-212/214-class (Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH of Endenand, Germany) and the Scorpene-class (DCN of France and Izar (formerly Bazan) of Spain). Such current technology subs can stay submerged for days without need for snorkeling. Equipped with closed-oxygen diesel drives such as the French "MESMA" (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP steam-turbine system that burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make steam to drive a turbo-electric generator, the design permits retrofitting into existing submarines by adding an extra hull section. Typical cost for a new submarine powered by MESMA is $250 million. These warships are openly for sale to almost anyone with a big enough checking account (except Taiwan, but that’s another story). For the budget-conscious – or someone simply in a hurry to raise hell with an allied navy -- a Russian P-130 or Piranha-T Small-class submarine may be purchased for a fraction of the cost of a Scorpene. While limited in crew size and range, a Piranha-T’s torpedoes and mines are quite suitable for denying coastal waters to most navies ill prepared for ASW.

Recognizing this large hole in national defense, the US Navy has just announced the creation of the Fleet ASW Command and the allocation of more money to oversee ASW. The moves are recognition by the Navy that it has lost through budget cuts and neglect the ability to effectively secure shallow waters near shore from submarines, and come as China, North Korea, Iran, and others are acquiring fourth generation SSKs. These subs are exponentially more dangerous than the Foxtrot- and Juliet- classes of diesel-electric submarines fielded by the USSR in the 1950s and 60s, which even then, gave the US Navy a run for its money..

Source: http://navlog.org/aswcom.html

FROM:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1035654/posts

[CasearianDaoist]

This is indeed what we do. And we win every time. Most of the people in the regular navy do not know the power of our sonar systems, let alone some "writer."

We did not get to have the best submarine force in history by being idiots.

[Rebelbase]

Go to my profile, about 1/2 way down there is a link to the old Diesel/Electric fleet, gives a history of each sub from launch to scrap.

The WWII boat's logs are shown, some very good reading. There are a couple of accounts I read about our subs firing "down the throat" shots at oncoming enemy destroyers....like was shown at the end of the movie U571.

[Tallguy]

I wouldn't mind if we bought a couple of diesel-electric subs from Germany or Sweden to use for coastal defense. Cheap to keep, cheap to run and cheap to train crews on.

Problems:

1. Maintenance of a ship-type not built here.
2. Training of crews to maintain systems that are unique.
3. The nuke Navy would have a cow. (Why do you think Adm. Rickover 'killed' non-nuke subs all those years ago? Think about that!)
4. Coastal Defense? Against who? The Red Chinese? That's what the P-3C Orions are for...They are much faster to target than a diesel-electric sub. Ain't nobody outrunning an aircraft.

As I said before, if we need to train against the diesel-electric threat, then just schedule joint exercises with our allies (Australia, Germany, Israel) -- they all have them. Of course, it is very embarrassing and hard to keep secret when one of these allied boats knocks off your LA/SeaWolf/Virginia Boat...

[Bottom_Gun]

the difference between diesel and Nuke is the diesel makes a lot less noise than a nuke, with out going into anything classified. in addition in close to land you have not only shallow waters to contend with but differences in pressure and Salinity ( water salt content) nothing classified there, basic oceanography.

All these factors contend along with more noise close to land generated by stuff on shore, and in the water,ie pleasurecraft and such. It would take a well trained operator, with a good amount of experence to pull a diesel out of that enviorment. Our guys are well trained but I think the experence factor is most in play with tracking a contact in "Brown Waters"

[hchutch]

Two words: SURTASS LFA.

Even a diesel boat can be found if one pings away. :)

[NYFriend]

Thank you. So the author of this piece seems to be saying that sonar crews look for the steam-engine sound of the nukes boats, and since the diesel's don't make those sounds they can get missed?

[bmwcyle]

I was a submarine fast attack sonar operator during 1884 to 1990. If you are taking about a submerged one the man is right. Other countries have invented ways to stay underwater up to a month. It is a problem and the problem is real.