The Diesel Submarine Threat

Fox News Live ^ | 1/28/04 | Sherry Sontag

[cinFLA]

The problem with nukes is the steam engine. It gives a definite sound signature that is unmistakable.

The nuclear system has pumps that must be kept running (some design exceptions) plus the reduction gears for the propulsion turbines are a major source of noise.

[bmwcyle]

And then they have found you. I have done opts tracking active German 505 boats. They could shoot first.

[Rebelbase]

"I was a submarine fast attack sonar operator during 1884 to 1990." Oh man, you are one seasoned sailor! Sorry, I had to........

[El Gran Salseron]

"Even a diesel boat can be found if one pings away. :)"

And if one "pings away" then one gives away the fact that one is there and his own location, doesn't one?

[Bottom_Gun]

glad to see another Operator here...though things have changed since our days in *L*

[Atlantic Friend]

You've got a point there, with the maintenance thing. The boats could be borrowed to Germany or France, and their maintenance be assured by these nations ?

Or, as you point out, the US navy could run a few naval exercises with various allied navies that build and sell diesel subs overseas, with an emphasis in anti-sub warfare.

[Tallguy]

I wouldn't mind if we bought a couple of diesel-electric subs from Germany or Sweden to use for coastal defense. Cheap to keep, cheap to run and cheap to train crews on.

"Give me a ping...One ping only Vasili!"

Of course, your dead-meat if you're the first to go active.

[dljordan]

A diesel sub running on batteries is very quiet. A nuke sub has to run cooling pumps unless the reactors are deactivated. They are very quiet also but make SOME noise. I'm no expert and have only read books on the subject. All that aside, don't we have satellites with blue lasers on them that can look into the ocean?

[El Gran Salseron]

"and since the diesel's don't make those sounds they can get missed?"

Not necessarily. They are just harder to detect. As someone in another post said.....the training of the operator is the key and make no mistake about that. The training of our military can not be outdone by anyone.

[hchutch]

SURTASS LFA can pick up a target at a range much longer than a torpedo can shoot.

Ping with SURTASS LFA, then vector in a couple of Orions. If anything, SURTASS LFA would make bringing back the S-3s (or an ASW variant of the V-22) quite viable.

Ping away, send the SV-22 to drop a couple of Mk 50/Mk 54s, and the sub is going to be limping home to port (best case for OPFOR) or headed to the bottom (best case for our side).

[bmwcyle]

The BUSY II is twice as good as the BQQ-5 but the new non-nukes or very quiet. There is solution but I can't go into it here. The question still is how good or intermittannt the solution is.

[scooter2]

If our systems can follow the sound a whales they can certainly track non-nuclear subs.

Heck, the passive sonar on our attack subs can track the clicks of shrimp!

[bmwcyle]

You speak to much.

[hchutch]

Only a problem if you're in range.

IIRC, SURTASS LFA has a much longer detection range than the range of most torpedoes.

At that point, the P-3s or the ASW Ospreys (they were talking about an ASW version of that bird in the past) get vectored in to drop a couple of Mk 50s or LHTs. One or two hits from those can ruin a sub's whole day. At best, they transition to "damage control and get home" as opposed to "hit the American carrier". Worst case (for them), the sub is on the bottom of the ocean/gulf/channel/bay.

[El Gran Salseron]

"Heck, the passive sonar on our attack subs can track the clicks of shrimp!"

Yes, that is true and they are called "snapping shrimp."

A crazy sonarman I worked with always used to report to the Con that he was hearing "snatching shrimp." He really used to get the conning officers outwardly upset with that remark but I used to see them smile inwardly. :-)

The problem is that snapping shrimp are louder than a diesel boat running on batteries.

[IYAS9YAS]

"Down Periscope!" Funny movie. Sad if it's true we can't track them, but I doubt that is the case.

[hchutch]

You have Freepmail.

[El Gran Salseron]

"The nuclear system has pumps that must be kept running (some design exceptions) plus the reduction gears for the propulsion turbines are a major source of noise."

Yes, being an ex-nuke sonarman, I am aware of that. I just didn't want to get into too much detail. My normal modus operandi is to give too much information and overload the original request for information.

[Bottom_Gun]

There is solution but I can't go into it here

I know what you mean, I'm mentally checking myself as to not deleve into classified details too *L*

[PAR35]

Anybody know others.

This should get you started:

The Cod is in Cleveland. Bowfin is at Pearl Harbor. The Huntley is being restored in Charelston. Becuna in Philly. Ling is in Hackensack, NJ. Pampanito is in San Francisco. Blueback is in Portland, OR. Cavella is in Corpus Christi. Clamagore is in Mt. Pleasant, S.Car. Batfish in Muskogee, OK. Albacore - Portsmouth, NH. Silversides - Muskegon, Mich. Cobia - Manitowoc, Wi.

For a Nuke, the Nautilus is in Groton, but is currently closed due to snow. Try in the summer. They are putting together a display of parts from the Polk at St. Mary's.

You did know the one in Chicago is German, didn't you? They used to have a Japanese midget sub in Fredricksburg, TX. I don't know if it is still there.

There is apparently a Foxtrot on display in India. Closer to home, there is an ex-russian sub apparently in Rhode Island.