Historian's Take on Islam Steers U.S. Policy

Wall St Journal ^ | 2-02-04 | PETER WALDMAN

[Mo1]

Thanks for the ping

[Cacique]

Al Queida's history has demonstrated the only muzzle it fears is the iron glove of retribution taken upon the relatives of conspirators - which America nor our allies will engage in. Any form of Western democracy will take years, most possibly decades, for the Iraqi people to accomplish, even with Allied America's continued help.

The Spanish and Latin American concept and rules of war were inherited from The Moors and Islam. Such concepts as "guerra sin cuarto" (war without quarter) and "arrancar la Raiz" (pulling the root) should be learned by the rest of the west because those are the rules our foes are applying. Argentina's "dirty war" against the leftist insurgents in the 70's and 80's was just such a war. Little understood by the northeners who are still too married to the civilised Queensbury rules of boxing.

The inquistion in Spain was severe precisely because it was necessary to employ the same methods the Muslims used in converting Christians to convert them back.

It seems the west has adopted the philosophy that one should bring a knife to a gunfight just to prove how compassionate one is.

[philosofy123]

"we in the US have fanatical Christian fundamentalists that may wish to have us beat people for not going to church" In no way I was trying to say that the fundamentalist Christians are in the same league as the Fundamentalist Moslems. I was exaggerating a bit to illustrate how social engineering and propaganda works in molding public understanding of the truth. I gave example of incremental policies that allowed the liberal media to make the majority accept/tolerate the unacceptable behaviors of gays. However, thin-skinned fundamentalists (like you) would never let one pass without arguing. You need to argue about the meat of my comments - that is WE CAN CHANGE THE MOSLEMS PUBLIC OPINION BY MANUPILATING THEIR MEDIA! I am a fundamentalist Christian, and was simply talking about the extreme type. Lighten up dudette!

[azhenfud]

"It seems the west has adopted the philosophy that one should bring a knife to a gunfight just to prove how compassionate one is."

Precisely. It appears you've summed up the West's short-sighted perspective on a war that will not nor can not be won by conventional warfare tactics or rationale.

[Publius6961]

BUMP

[Clemenza]

Most of the atrocities against the Armenians were locally directed, much like the pogroms in your own country.

Ataturk was not very kind to the Islamists, however.

[TruthConquers]

bump for later read

[Ohioan]

I would suggest to you that this attempt to provide a scholarly theory to support the foolish notion of imposing Democracy in the Third World, involves a compounded confusion of cause and effect; a mistaken attribution of causes for various related phenomena. For one critical example, consider the effect of the Mongol butchery on the once great capacity for civilization in Mesopotamia. The populations have never recovered, their former capacity, from that genocidal onslaught.

Nor are the peoples of Iraq a single ethnic group. Imposing a Democracy on a multi-cultural State is madness with a sadistic flair.

Instead of chasing fantasies in the desert, the President would employ his time much better, if he took a long, careful and structured look at what is happening to popular Government in America. The picture is not so pretty. If we cannot fix it, we ought certainly to refrain from trying to export it.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

[SJackson]

The first thing is for our politicians to realize that they must infiltrate the Moslem media through a covert help from their politicians. If our politicians chose to keep hands off interfering with other countries internal hate propaganda, then we will still have to contend with the results of such propaganda. Spending money bribing intellectuals to do the incremental soft selling of moderation should be our first priority. UN sponsored tactics can also help legitimize such effort. Considering freedom of religion, protection of minorities’ house of worships should be pushed by the Islamic leaders and the UN. Crimes against humanity should be further defined to include forced religion conversions or religion killings. Worldwide solidarity against nations that oppresses its minorities in the name of religion must become a cause celebre du jour.

From your mouth to GWBs ear, maybe he'll take $12 from drug benefits and allocate it to propaganda, which we should be engaging in. Of course, when we infiltrate the "Moslem Media" we'll have to ask the Saudis for recommendations. It's a good idea, but going nowhere, like this one: Guilty of advocating mass murder: International law used to prosecute Palestinian media incitement. IMO, we haven't reached the point yet where we're willing to hold the purveyors of terror responsible, at the source.

[SJackson]

Islam, as a combination culture/political system/imperialist movement is truly hopeless. It never gets wiser, just finds better weapons.

In that sense, I hope you're right that fundamentalist Islam is hopeless in a historical sense, rather than us as a function of our refusal to recognize the nature of our enemy. For all the yapping about the threat of transborder multiculturalism, not many recognize that fundamentalist Islam is it in it's most virulent form.

[SJackson]

As my friend explained - any democracy formed within Iraq must begin with Iraqi's. Western influence can only be just that - influence - and not force. The Iraqi people have to decide to be free and that freedom is also freedom from fanatic Islamic control.

Do you think that's going to happen? I think the Kurds deserve autonomy, and that a dual or tripratiad (sp?-that's 3) state might be the best solution. Maybe they can coexist, but I think if "Western influence" is to prevail, may well be through force of arms, and I don't think we're about to hang around that long.

[SJackson]

On the sidebar of America's policies abroad there is an important omission: Reagan's policy of calling USSR an Evil Empire and staying tough, and supporting Eastern-Europeans in their quest for freedom from the USSR.

You're right, but I bet our former enemies haven't forgotten, nor those freed in Eastern Europe. Kind of ironic that we may well go through three decades, maybe longer where the most viable candidates to lead our nation are Bushes and Clintons (another topic, but that's sick), but Ronnie was the best.

[SJackson]

"It isn't democracy that we must introduce into the Islamic world, but complete and utter defeat." ...BTTT

Have I told you you're a fanatic lately?

[SJackson]

Precisely. It appears you've summed up the West's short-sighted perspective on a war that will not nor can not be won by conventional warfare tactics or rationale.

Left out of my previous response, imo we don't recognize the character of a "transnational" threat, which defies defies conventional tactics oriented toward territory rather than ideas. Winning "hearts and minds", we've been there before.

[RussianConservative]

Locally on racial level, it was not few dozen stupid drunk peasant who walk into jewish district and burn or shoot...it was mass expulsion to desert and mass murder on level that inspired Hilter. It also aimed at 500,000 strong Assyrian community and death of 2 million Greek Iotolans.

[RussianConservative]

Well, make that Protestant/Catholic west, Orthodox west never like war but when we go to war it is hell we bring upon enemy.

[JasonC]

"never understood the realities of political and social mobilization"

Translation - he doesn't understand that the victory of the prols is inevitable, just as Marx said, and all non-commie, reactionary measures are doomed. Aw shucks, then you won't mind if we do all of them anyway, will you Mr. Cole?

[Publius6961]

BUMP

[NutCrackerBoy]

Iraq looks more like a breeding ground for terrorism than a showcase of democracy. -Juan Cole

Iraq is a centrifuge. The vibrations are slowly moving the heavier components, the busily breeding terrorists, out to the margins.