R&D Starts to Move Offshore - Outsourcing evolves beyond low-wage programming jobs

ComputerWorld ^ | 3/1/2004 | Patrick Thibodeau and Sumner Lemon

[elfman2]

"If you believe those number games, than I got some swampland that you will love to buy. Low-paying self-employment are hiding how bad it is."

1) The self-employed are not calculated into the 2.6 million jobs lost since 2000. 1.7 million are said to be a consequence of 9/11. The rest in my opinion are a product of the internet bubble bursting, not outsourcing. That figure is a survey of employers, asking them how many people are on their payrolls. Then there’s a household survey, asking people if they’re working. That reports that about 500,000 jobs have been created since 2000. That number includes those “low paying” self-employed.

2) If the numbers were wrong, they could be proven wrong. And our political opposition would nail us on it. (If not the Democrats, the Greens or the Libertarians) Here in the Florida Keys, it’s nearly impossible to find a good contractor. Everyone who’s occasionally sober works. But it’s not a magnet for depressed areas because housing prices are too high to buy something more than a trailer on a $70k salary. The numbers are right, but if you listen to enough losers and Democrats, you’ll buy their swampland.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

Uses: - To protect the most critical industries to national security like food, fuel weapons, critical raw materials etc…

Which is exactly the use almost every person arguing against free trade has made on this thread . You just won't admit it.

- To protect against state sponsored or otherwise illegal competition, like Japan subsidizing auto manufacturing in the early 80s, and their automakers colluding to share technology and marketing information.

Which is what I am advocating here, as well. I have argued successfully that nations who do not recognize the basic rights of their citizens are competing illegaly.

- To persuade other countries to open up their markets.

Again, you make my point. India, China, South Korea, and other "free trade" partners impose tariffs on US manufactured goods. China has a 100% tariff on Japanese-brand cars assembled in US plants, along with many other tariffs. I worked for an auto parts mfg., and the Chinese tariff on our product was 25%. Your "free" trade is an illusion. I advocate tariffs, you seem to support the status quo, which is for the US to go begging the WTO for fair trade.

In a series of posts I’ve tried to show you that other legal powers can be abused

We're not talking about other legal powers, we're talking about tariffs.

Just getting you to understand that this is not a discussion of trading with a military rival or that any tariffs could possibly be an abuse is too time consuming

But it is a discussion about trading with rivals, both military, and economic, and about America being able to retain its position as defender of the free world. If the manufacturing base is lost, that is precisely what is happening. If you think a tariff battle is the worst thing that could happen to the world, wait until our "trading partners" starting dictating the internal and foreign policy of a toothless America drowning in debt.

To make it worse, you’re too quick to attack personally (now my intellectual honesty) just because of my sarcastic tone. Perhaps I employ sarcasm too quickly.

You are correct on both accounts. I was too quick to attack personally, and you did use acidic sarcasm very early in the debate (in your very first post to me, if I remember correctly).

we don’t have a relationship that would allow us to move into any greater depth with this. Perhaps another time.

The debate over free trade is a hot one, and I have had both reaonable debates and arguments with people who's sole repertoire consists of calling people a commie. I would say our debate devolved quickly, but even in that state we both tried to maintain some semblance of reason, and so I have enjoyed it. It's too bad names were called, but that's the way life is sometimes. I admit I get more enjoyment from a debate than I do from an argument, but smug sarcasm is a button of mine that will get me going right away, and I admit I enjoy a good flame war once somebody pushes it. But I do hope you'll reconsider on another foreign trade issue thread sometime. Regardless of what has happened here, I am sure I will enjoy a good old fashioned debate, argument, flame war, or whatever happens in the future. I have not taken anything too personally, and I don't hold grudges.

[elfman2]

"Which is exactly the use almost every person arguing against free trade has made on this thread . You just won't admit it."

I told you that you’re too emotionally explosive to be read on this subject. This one statement is proof, and I’m not going to read beyond it.

I’m not going to endure someone who can’t or won’t process the most fundamental aspects of common sense (that power can be abused) making the most juvenile attempts to insult me over and over again. Don’t write to me, I won’t read it.

But of course you can’t control yourself, and you’ll have to have the last word,… go ahead.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

You're lookign at it from a narrow perspective.

No, I am looking at it from a realistic and historic perspective. The current "free" trade/income tax economic model is a huge failure. "Propserity" is an illusion purchased with massive debt and inflation of the money supply. Measuring the greatness of a nation using the consumption rate of cheaply made goods as an indicator is a fool's errand

You would also have supported the steel protectionism. That helped the steel workers, but hit the steel consuming industries hard.

Which is exactly what happens when the "steel consuming" industries get hooked on government subsidized foreign steel and illegal dumping. Inefficient foreign steel plants get propped up, our steel consuming industry gets lazy, and our own production capacity (required for national security) gets wiped out. If I have to choose between steel consuming industries and steel producing industries, I will choose the producers.

Now, your method may have some direct, visible benefits, but the indirect, invisibile benefits would hurt a lot more and the overal effect would be negative.

Again, I have stated facts, and you make another unprovable assertion. Explain in detail (the way I just explained how our steel producing industry is getting wiped out by illegal dumping) how the overall effect is negative. If you post a comeback that ignores my detailed explanation without providing your own, I will take that as an admittance of your defeat.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

I told you that you’re too emotionally explosive to be read on this subject. This one statement is proof, and I’m not going to read beyond it.

That's too bad, beuase you missed the olive branch at the end of the post. And you call me juvenile and emotional? Ha! Ha! What a laugh!

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

beuase = because

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

I’m not going to endure someone who can’t or won’t process the most fundamental aspects of common sense (that power can be abused).

Power can abused, therefore tariffs are an abuse of power. Sorry, that's not common sense, that is a non sequitur.

Talk about having to endure. Since you refused my olive branch, I might as well tell the truth. I've endured all of your histrionic nonsense from the very beginning of this thread, and will continue to do so. And now that I've negotiated you into proving my points, you "refuse to read further".

[Paul C. Jesup]

The jobs not out-sourced will go to illegal immigrants.

[Paul C. Jesup]

1. If people fired and then start their own home business at a quarter of their previous salary, then that hides the problem for the unemployment office. That is how the numbers are being hide.

2. See number 1.

[Cronos]

A Historical perspective.....

The steel consuming industry had to roll back it's production, so we had less exports as our goods using steel became more expensive.

[oceanview]

and that is exactly what is happening - most of these now self employed people will fail, or will survive on a fraction of their previous wage/benefit package when they had their corporate jobs.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

The steel consuming industry had to roll back it's production, so we had less exports as our goods using steel became more expensive.

I don't doubt that, and never did. You are absolutely correct. Whatever the immediate effect the tariffs had on the steel consuming industries is unfortunate. But your statement does nothing to address the fact that government-subsidized steel was being dumped on our market at below cost, which was wiping out our steel PRODUCTION. You've said nothing at all about this. I'm waiting.

[Cronos]

It wasn't subsidised by our government!!!!

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

and that is exactly what is happening - most of these now self employed people will fail, or will survive on a fraction of their previous wage/benefit package when they had their corporate jobs.

Jobs! Bah! We don't need no stinking jobs! We got cheap stuff, that's better.

[jpsb]

Your argument that usa labor will be better off (gain high paying jobs, lose low paying joys) was pr oven false in the 1700's, 1800's.

Take a look at the economies of the pre civil was north and south. In the south while labor had to compete with low cost slave labor. The result, dirt poor while people. In the north where was no low cost slave labor to compete against, the result, was much more prosperous society.

Conclusion? If the us government does nothing to protect usa labor from competition from low cost third world slave labor, then we like the poor whites of the old south will all be dirt poor. And you will be to blame for abject poverty that you are leaving your children.

[elfman2]

"Conclusion?"

The conclusion is that “outsourcing” jobs to the South that could be done cheaper there did not damage the North’s economy (although I’m sure there were plenty of fearful people predicting its end).

And despite these “unfair labor practices” and the “grossly unequal labor costs” and everything else that people think will destroy us today in Asia, the North’s prosperity and Industry breed by freedom left it able to field an army large enough to invade and crush the South after it rebelled.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I’ll use it next time I feel like entering one of these “sky is falling” threads.

[jpsb]

Jobs were not out sourced to the south little one they stayed in the north which is why the northren workers were spared the cokmpetition with low coast labor. Seems the north had a moral objection to slave labor, unlike todays capitalists that love it.

I hope you are a young person and will be forced to live with the consequences of your stupidity. It just doesn't seem fair that only your children suffer.

And oh by the way, your economic mind set is also killing the GOP and conservativism in the usa, that you will get to experience first hand in this election. Thanks alot neocons, you're killing the right.

[elfman2]

"Jobs were not out sourced to the south”

Sure they were where! Tens of millions of jobs, mostly farming, whatever could be done by slave labor. And the North thrived.

" I hope you are a young person and will be forced to live with the consequences of your stupidity. "

There’s a new one… I expect protectionists to snap into name calling when they have nothing of intelligence left to say, but you take it a step further and want me to suffer as well. Impressive…

[jpsb]

"Sure they were where! Tens of millions of jobs, mostly farming, whatever could be done by slave labor. And the North thrived."

Nope wrong again, are you ever right about anything? Can you provide any proof (none exists) to support your contention that the northern states exported tens of millions of jobs to the south?

Re suffer? Yup, I firmly believe that people should suffer the concequences of their actions, free traders in particular since folks like me have spend years, explaining and demonstating how stupid our trade policies have become. What is unfortunate is that yall are going to make everyone suffer while yall persue a marxist utopean economic policy that the world is nowhere near ready for yet. You are going enpoverish your children, destroy the republic and likely cause the death of many hundred of millions of people once the usa is no longer able to defend the west. Good job, you are doing what hitler, stalin and king George never could. Way to go.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

It wasn't subsidised by our government!!!!

I didn't say it was!!!!!!!!!?????!!!????!!!!!!!!!!

Duh. Government-subsidized steel imports would imply the subsidy came from the foreign government. The steel being dumped in our market at below cost is heavily subsidized by the countries of origin. BTW, I would have forgone the "Duh" had you not used four exclamation points. My subsequent ridiculous punctuation is intended to highlight the ridiculous nature of ridiculous excess punctuation.