Libertarian Purity Test by Bryan Caplan

the corner, NRO ^ | unknown | bryan caplan

[Kakaze]

56 here...I'm not a big fan of yes/ no questions.

[Modernman]

I got a 57. Note the unhealthy obsession with The Fed that runs through most of the questions. Libertarians do love wacky monetary policy ideas . . . and drugs.

I took this a while back. I had a pretty low score, too. I got hung up on statements like "government should never do x." I can pretty much think of exceptions to any such statement where it would be completely necessary and proper for government to limit some type of freedom.

[BroncosFan]

I probably over-parsed the absolute statements: "All government owned land should be privitized." ICBM silos run by Dell? Sub pens subletting to Carnival cruise lines?

[raloxk]

I scored a 56. Mostly agreed 100% with Milton Freedman

[Modernman]

I probably over-parsed the absolute statements: "All government owned land should be privitized." ICBM silos run by Dell? Sub pens subletting to Carnival cruise lines?

Even better, you could sell shares to the general public- every year, you could have a shareholder's meeting to decide whether to nuke North Korea or France.

Plus, the advertising revenue that would come in from, say, Trojan condoms buying ads on the side of the Washington Monument, would be substantial.

[Xenalyte]

My score is 88. I am a medium-core libertarian, probably self-consciously so. My friends definitely encourage me to quit talking about my views so much.

[Forgiven_Sinner]

Heh. I'm glad you took it as Levitical Israel. I knew their society was quite open and ad hoc, in terms of government.

Here's the gotcha: read Judges: "every man did what was right in his own eyes." Very libertarian and very bloody. Judges shows Israel continually sinking into depravity.

The New Testement reveals that God found fault with Israel, not the Old Covenant. They were not able to keep the Old Covenant.

Now evaluate the test in terms of the New Covenant.

My score, by the way, was 50. I think government is good for public goods, like parks and highways. People in a republic should be able to ban books that are harmful (pornography)--but only over the range of the electorate. City A could ban it, for only themselves, not for city B.

[arimus]

Pardon the intrusion Forgiven_sinner but I'm not so sure "every man did what was right in his own eyes" is a libertarian expression. Or better yet, a libertarian maxim.

Rather, every man should be free to do as they choose, so long as they don't infringe upon the equal freedom of others. Actions that should be forbidden by law are those that involve the initiation of force against those who have not themselves used force. Murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, and fraud then are intiations of force and are to be defended against.

The sinking then into deprevity by Israel is not linked to their so called "libertarian" state but rather the lack of a Godly one.

BTW, Israel and Hebrew families over the years did at times keep the law fairly well. Sacrifice and forgiveness was part of the law. So tripping up here and there was covered when they believed their transgressions forgiven thru the sacrificial animal.

I'd say the fault lay more in not following the Messiah. The long awaited for King who would rescue them. Choosing instead to set up that worldly kingdom and fight Rome for it. Which they did, and lost.

That means the fault is really not connected to their percieved inability to keep "libertarian" styled laws.

My score, 115 which is in the same grouping with Orthodoxpresbyterian.

[Forgiven_Sinner]

"Pardon the intrusion Forgiven_sinner but I'm not so sure "every man did what was right in his own eyes" is a libertarian expression. Or better yet, a libertarian maxim.

Rather, every man should be free to do as they choose, so long as they don't infringe upon the equal freedom of others. "

Aye, there's the rub. We don't agree on where my freedom ends and your's begins. When slavery is allowed, do I have the freedom to allow my slave to be raped and killed? That's one episode in Judges. Where do libertarians come down on slavery? Are slaves property or people? If they're people, why?


"Actions that should be forbidden by law are those that involve the initiation of force against those who have not themselves used force. Murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, and fraud then are intiations of force and are to be defended against. "

Yep, you're right--but if the law is outsourced to the local citizenry, as it was in ancient Israel or the wild west in the US, what if they don't prosecute? Or what if do prosecute--the wrong person? There's no appeal once you're dead by hanging or stoning.

"The sinking then into deprevity by Israel is not linked to their so called "libertarian" state but rather the lack of a Godly one. "

You're partially right--converted people are the ideal libertarians because they've agreed to be ruled by God and follow his laws regardless of other people. Their behavior also has an influence on their neighbors.

Unconverted people may also have strong internal rules inculcated by parents, religion, society, even themselves. These folks will also do well under libertarian society, as long as their rules don't impinge upon the rights of others.

But regardless of the rules we would follow in a libertarian society, our selfish pulls urge us to violate even God's rules, let alone our parent's, society's, or our own. A philosophical and theological question is "why did God create an Old Covenant with Israel, knowing it would fail?" One answer I've heard is that God had to prove that even with a perfect government, a perfect environment, and perfect laws, human beings can't be happy apart from an intimate relationship with Him.

"BTW, Israel and Hebrew families over the years did at times keep the law fairly well. Sacrifice and forgiveness was part of the law. So tripping up here and there was covered when they believed their transgressions forgiven thru the sacrificial animal. "

Actually, the sacrificial system did a fine job of pointing out the enormity of sin--when it is followed. Sacrificing a bull or goat is like paying a penalty of hundreds or thousands of dollars.

"I'd say the fault lay more in not following the Messiah. The long awaited for King who would rescue them. Choosing instead to set up that worldly kingdom and fight Rome for it. Which they did, and lost. "

Agreed. A problem for Christians too.

[arimus]

Thanks for the response Forgiven_Sinner.

Libertarians would be compelled to argue against slavery as it violates the rule of non-aggression. It is force intiated. That's too easy. A better example might be porn or drugs.

These would be allowed in a libertarian society and as far as issues go, certainly cause most non-libertarians the most reserve and angst.
Where does one's freedoms end and the infringement on another begin, especially when it comes to smut and powerful narcotics?

The answer is alluded to in the OT, where dangers needed to be fenced in. Here then is where private property rights come into play.

Use smut and cocaine say, in your own home and prevent damage to others as well as public property and your to be left alone. This does not rule out evangelism and help from concerned and caring neighbors of course. It only rules out force by the neighbors.

Keep a 150 pound attack dog in your home if you like but allow that animal to escape your fenced in property and your to be dealt with and most likely sued for the resulting damages.

The agreement for us on freedoms is easier to apply than you might expect. You apply the law of brotherly love. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The non-agression principle that most Libertarians adhere to is swallowed up in Christ's command to us all.

As for the failure to prosecute known offenders and the prosecution of the wrong people, that occurs now. I don't see many (at least conservative minded folk) calling for the end of the system due to that flaw.

To revisit Judges for instance, The tribe of Benjamin paid dearly for not prosecuting her members that helped perpatrate the horrible crimes committed in their neighborhoods. You cannot go long, administering poor justice without some corrective action. For us in Christ, that doesn't just come from peer pressure but the Holy Spirit as well.

Sorry if my post sounded as if the creation of a libertarian society would suddenly usher in Utopia. I don't belive that. I do believe that a Libertarian society would allow Christians to evangelize far more convincingly.
Rather than lean on the State to do it's dirty work.

More convincingly because the society would be building would resemble our Lord's teachings and be more consistant. It also requires more faith imo.

Finally, I for one never saw the Messiah as plan B. He did not come because plan A (Israel under Mosiac law) failed.
The return of the King was always plan A.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The answer is alluded to in the OT, where dangers needed to be fenced in. Here then is where private property rights come into play.

"Private Property Rights" do indeed come into play.

As long as I am a beneficial corporate owner of Public Property, I refuse to allow the sale of Drugs and Prostitution and Pornography on Public Property of which I am a Common Owner.

Not on MY Roads, not on MY sidewalks, not in MY Public Parks. I have paid for these with my Taxes, and I WILL exercise my common-ownership rights over MY public property as long as I am a Public Owner.

But that is a wholly different matter from Me invading YOUR Private Property to enforce my own Moral Dictates.

There are 613 laws in the Old Testament. NOT ONE authorizes the Believer to Invade Private Property to prevent Private Intoxication of Any Sort.

Did God forget?
Or are we Adding to the Law?

---

"Dude... you just broke down my door!"
"Yeah, my name's Jesus Christ, and I'm here to help you... put down the marijuana cigarette, or I'll blow your head off."

---

The funny thing is, there are CLEAR AND UNAMBIGUOUS Biblical Laws against Sodomy and Adultery. God never commanded any Legal Penalty against dope-heads, but back in the old day He commanded death against Sodomites.

(Maybe, in His infinite wisdom, God realized that Sodomy is a threat to the Social Order -- whereas Marijuana is merely a threat to the supply of available Doritos)

Now, in the spirit of Full Disclosure, I'm gonna admit that I'm pretty Calvinist-Libertarian -- MY LAW is the Law of Romans 13:8-10, and for THAT LAW I will freely pay My Taxes -- to Punish Murder, Adultery, Theft, Fraud, Malfeasance, and Aggression against the Neighbor.

These are the Crimes which the Apostle Paul declares to be the Civil Evils, and for those I render Taxes to Caesar (regarding all other Taxes as Tyrannical, paid under protest, rendering unto Caesar that which is not his.)

But nonetheless, even though I AM a Libertarian, I would GLADLY prefer the Law of Moses to the Abomination of Irrational Law under which we swelter today. Although it is my belief that the New Covenant has separated the Duties of Priest and Magistrate, and that Homosexuals should not be Executed (better they should be Converted, rather than Killed) -- better the Law of Moses, than the Law of Marx.

But that merely speaks to the Symptom. Let's go to the heart of the matter.
We Christians have forgotten our first Love -- Jesus Christ uber alles.

Politics should be almost an academic matter to the True Christian (of which the Calvinist, as the Holy Saint Percival of Christendom, ought to be an Exemplar unto all)... a field of battle for which we are prepared, but which we are prepared to do without.

Until the Baptist Reverend Jerry Falwell rallied his hundreds of thousands against the Abomination of Abortion, the Old Baptists always took their doctrine of "Church Independence from the State" to the Extreme (an Old Separationist Baptist might never object to Mel Gibson's Motion Picture -- but he would consider it A GREIVOUS SIN to cast a Vote for any Politician. "My Kingdom is not of this World".)

You know what? Maybe the Old Baptists were right all along. Maybe Christians should view the State as a Worldly Evil. Joe Sobran and the Old Baptists find themselves arm-in-arm.

Or even putting the best possible Presbyterian-Republican "spin" on the Existence of the State, you gotta give Rushdoony his due. That which God has not specifically authorized -- IS EVIL.

We Christians don't care anymore.
• We DO NOT CARE that Abortion violates the Sixth Commandment. I was there when the "Christian Church" turned its collective back on Operation Rescue in the Summer of Mercy, 1991. In KANSAS, the Heart of the Bible Belt. This was the STALINGRAD of Operation Rescue. We went to the wall against Tiller's Late-Term Abortion Clinic.... and after all was said and done, nobody was left on the field but a few Orthodox Presbyterians and Traditional Catholics who were dragged off to prison without support. We DO NOT CARE.

• We DO NOT CARE that the abomination of Publik Skooling poisons our Children against Christ, His Church, and Our Families every day. We literally sacrifice Our Children to the minefields of Satan every day because it is less expensive (and it is only "less expensive", because we have already sacrificed to Caesar more than even the Pagan Kings of Old demanded of their subjects... do we obey Christ, when we render unto Caesar that which is not his?

• We DO NOT CARE that "Social Security" (or better called, "State Dependency") has made a Mockery of the Three-Generation-Family, just as Ronald Reagan feared it would. There was a time when Grandfathers passed on their Wisdom, and Sons supported their Fathers in Love. But now nothing is known of Charity and Family; all is Taxed, and all is Obligated, and every Generation is eternally at war against its forebears and its sons.

If we Christians really cared...

We wouldn't just engage in an entirely-useless battle against Legal Abortion (sorry, folks; I wish it wasn't useless, but after 30 years, it is) -- we would train our every child to reject Birth Control and all its Satanic Works. Jesus Christ is willing to Win by Attrition.

We wouldn't just engage in useless and stupid battles over "Prayer in Publik Skools", we would renounce the Publik Skools as the Satanic Synagogues that they are and remove our children from these Devil-Pits (and every Church that dares to call itself "Christian", should support every Parent to the best of its ability). Jesus Christ is willing to Win by Attrition.

It's time to stop justifying ANY Public Welfare, ANY Government Security, ANY Social Work whatsoever and admit -- "We trust in God, more than Government. 'Compassionate Conservativism' is a GOD-HATING IDOL -- there is none "compassionate", but God." No "Compassion" at another Man's Expense -- EVER.

It's high time Christians got serious about Christianity in Politics -- God commands either Execution, or Restitution. If you believe the Bible, then buck up to the plate and form your Political Theonomy by this standard. EXECUTION or RESTITUTION: Make Laws on this basis -- and none other.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[xzins]

OP, there is so much here.

1. Private Property: If I can have the real ownership of my own property, then I must be more than willing to drastically reduce the amount of property that the state owns. Essentially, the state needs to own military reservations, some government buildings, and "perhaps" a few roads and bridges. (There is no good reason for the state to own a park, for example. Entrepreneurs will discover the value of parks and charge for them at a realistic rate that will enable people who desire them to enjoy them. If a "theme park" can make money, so can a "nature park." Weyerhauser can grow trees and let people camp near the streams.) 2. Abortion and Education: Your idea of attrition is interesting. While they kill their children, Christians will be populating the world. It makes sense IF those children are educated by the Christians, so the education piece is a critical part of that plan. Always, though, one would think there should be a testimony to the world about the tragedy of their killing their own children. 3. Execution or restitution: I see that as almost a complete picture. The cities of refuge involved neither, and they were an acceptable alternative to execution for those who innocently spilled blood, but could not necessarily prove it. They were sort of an "imprisonment with latitude." One thinks that the avenger of blood would not forever camp outside the walls of the city of refuge. A parallel to the cities of refuge for our day escapes me.

[drstevej]

***Until the Baptist Reverend Jerry Falwell rallied his hundreds of thousands against the Abomination of Abortion, the Old Baptists always took their doctrine of "Church Independence from the State" to the Extreme (an Old Separationist Baptist might never object to Mel Gibson's Motion Picture -- but he would consider it A GREIVOUS SIN to cast a Vote for any Politician. "My Kingdom is not of this World".)***

Old Baptist I take it is a synonym for the 16th century Anabaptists whose two kingdom doctrine precluded a Christian from ever serving as a magistrate at any level.

There are few true Anabaptists on this issue today. The challenge seems to be where to draw the line between Anabaptism and Theonomy.

Should a Christian:
vote?
run for office?
once elected seek to legislate biblical principles (and if yes, which ones)?

[sheltonmac]

95. Guess we're in the same ballpark!

[The Libertarian Dude]

Where, exactly, did Browne say we should be providing drugs to kids? I don't recall that being part of his platform...

Not that I care much for Browne. He didn't do the party any good in the long run. But let's not be putting words in his mouth. That's what Kerry and other big-time politicians do to each other.

[Conservative til I die]

I'm going to go back and answer like an idiot

You mean you haven't been doing that here for years already? Coulda fooled me.

[A CA Guy]

Not at all, I threw out common sense, decency and class. In other words I mirrored a Libertarian anarchist and scored BIG!

[The Libertarian Dude]

You do know what the definition of "anarchist" is, right?