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How to fix the problem of off shoring
3-12-04 | F. Kelly

Posted on 03/12/2004 3:19:27 PM PST by det dweller too

The problem of off shoring jobs isn't fixed by limiting free trade, the problem is fixed by changing our tax STRUCTURE that is causing an UNSTABLE economic condition. By our emphasis on the income tax to fund government, we have put the burden on US residents to pay for ALL the costs created by government activity. Those costs become folded into our cost of living and become part of the cost of anything made here. Meanwhile some businesses have figured out they can avoid all those costs and keep their prices low by going outside of our borders.

In 1913, after much struggle and debate, congress got the income tax incorporated with the passage of the 16th amendment. Prior to that, almost all federal revenue was from tariffs. We also had a bad experience with commodity taxes before the revolution [remember the Boston Tea party and “no taxation without representation”], and the tariff was causing trade wars. But the final straw was that the tariff-based system just wasn't bringing in enough money for those politician’s plans.

And the initial income tax rate was very mild, just 1% starting at 5X the median income. So even after the income tax was incorporated, the majority of the revenue still came from tariffs on imports. Interestingly in 1913 the Federal Budget was only about $1 Billion! Today it's about 2,500 times bigger.

Today 90 years later those horrible tariffs are gone, the nanny state is huge and expanding rapidly and virtually 100% of the cost of all this is born by the US taxpayer. By a cruel twist of fate, none of these costs are born on products and services that are sold here as long as those things are NOT made by any US citizens or residents. This is outrageous! The income taxes, corporate taxes, regulations and lawsuits drive the cost of living and producing products and services HERE through the roof and make it nearly impossible for us to produce anything HERE that we can sell HERE.

This is where the problem solving should be done. Shift some of the taxes from income to commodities.

..........TAX PRODUCTS ........... NOT PEOPLE!!!

If there is a tax on commodity sold in this market, and it is the SAME tax rate regardless of where it came from, then nobody can complain. This is fair because it costs something to keep this market here. There are no open sewers on the side of the streets, or thugs with machine guns in pickup trucks roaming the streets, or government officials demanding payoff. This is a peaceful, well ordered and the most profitable market to sell in. Remember, they are coming HERE to sell. It is entirely within our rights to expect ALL merchants selling HERE to pick up some of the costs of having access to this market.

Some will argue that sending jobs overseas has been going on for a long time and the net effect is good, that those are all low tech low pay jobs and that this change opens up opportunity here for the better jobs. Well it looked like that was happening for a while because the technology here could make productivity and quality advantages that could more than offset the cost advantage of going overseas, but nothing stays static. Flush with money from the increased business over the last many years, overseas operations have made quantum leaps in productivity, quality and service. Add the effect of broadband internet connections that put a supplier in China only one mouse click away and you have a situation where a foreign company can match any domestic source for quality, service, selection, delivery, etc. and overwhelm them with low pricing.

An analogy may make it easier to see. Suppose you have a big department store in a town that was very popular. This store offered a place for the local clothing and goods suppliers to sell their products, and in return asked for a 30% cut for the store. Now this system worked fine for many years, then one day some suppliers came in from out of town and, because of a quirk in the contracts, didn’t have to pay the store their 30% cut. At first these out-of-towners only made a few lower quality, inexpensive products and nobody was very concerned about them. After a while though, these out-of-towners started to improve. They slowly got into the higher priced and higher quality products and because they didn’t have to give the store a cut, they could beat everyone on price. The local suppliers worked feverishly to compete by cutting costs, then wages, then staffs, then products, but they couldn’t overcome the advantage the out-of-towners had on pricing. Then the store told the remaining local suppliers that they had to increase their cut to the store to 40% to keep it open. Soon the local suppliers were so financially weak that the out-of-towners could get any business they went after and the local suppliers started to disappear. In the end, the out-of-town suppliers had nearly all the business, and the store went bankrupt.

Leaving the effects of regulations and lawsuits aside for now, If we want to have a stable society again, what we need to do is reduce personal and corporate income taxes and add the equivalent in commodity taxes. The net tax burden on US citizens and residents would not change, so it will be a tax shift and not a tax cut. But for the first time people who bring imports to the market will contribute to the cost of having that market there. The products and services made in this country will be more competitive, economic stability will return and costs will go down, and EVERYONE will be PAYING THEIR FARE SHARE!


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: economy; election; jobs; offshoring; politics; protectionism; trade
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1 posted on 03/12/2004 3:19:27 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: det dweller too
"Leaving the effects of regulations and lawsuits aside for now, If we want to have a stable society again, what we need to do is reduce personal and corporate income taxes and add the equivalent in commodity taxes. The net tax burden on US citizens and residents would not change, so it will be a tax shift and not a tax cut. But for the first time people who bring imports to the market will contribute to the cost of having that market there. The products and services made in this country will be more competitive, economic stability will return and costs will go down, and EVERYONE will be PAYING THEIR FARE SHARE!

Man, you are smart!! I guess you and I will be raped for saying so:)


2 posted on 03/12/2004 3:26:33 PM PST by international american
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To: det dweller too
Actually, I heard that India will be petitioning for admission into the Union as the 51st state.
3 posted on 03/12/2004 3:31:37 PM PST by AreaMan
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To: det dweller too
Actually your first mistake is that you are calling outsourcing a problem. It isn't. Flame away.
4 posted on 03/12/2004 3:37:26 PM PST by rudypoot
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To: international american
How about if we score each nation based on it's political and religious freedom, as well as the degree of corruption extant in in the system. Then, based on that score, we look up a tarrif that is applied to every item imported from the respective nations(?)

The scoring itself could be done by a panel of 100 regular Americans selected randomly on a periodic basis.

5 posted on 03/12/2004 3:51:39 PM PST by The Duke
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To: rudypoot
I find it laughable that some Americans insist that we pay more for their product, yet they are the same ones who bargain shop everything they buy. Free trade benefits all.
6 posted on 03/12/2004 3:52:54 PM PST by ItisaReligionofPeace (I'm from the government and I'm here to help.)
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To: det dweller too
Go here to permanently fix the income tax problem.

http://futurepointe.com/income-tax/marie/order_tb.html

.

7 posted on 03/12/2004 3:56:06 PM PST by GeekDejure ( LOL = Liberals Obey Lucifer !!!)
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To: det dweller too
1 - " none of these costs are born on products and services that are sold here as long as those things are NOT made by any US citizens or residents. This is outrageous! "

So succinct and so true. And the free traitors don't begin to understand this.
8 posted on 03/12/2004 4:03:19 PM PST by XBob
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To: ItisaReligionofPeace
6 - So, where do the imports contribute to the upkeep of the 'store'?
9 posted on 03/12/2004 4:05:30 PM PST by XBob
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To: GeekDejure
Are you an American citizen??? Go here to read about how you can permanently delete your income tax problem.

http://futurepointe.com/income-tax

.

10 posted on 03/12/2004 4:11:58 PM PST by GeekDejure ( LOL = Liberals Obey Lucifer !!!)
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To: det dweller too
..........TAX PRODUCTS ........... NOT PEOPLE!!!

Only people can pay taxes. You can change the basis for the tax assessment, but it will still be people who pay it.

And yes, people (American people) will still pay for the tariffs. They'll pay because the price of the product is higher after the tariff has been levied.

I am certainly no fan of the current income tax system, but I just don't see what this would accomplish.

11 posted on 03/12/2004 6:24:12 PM PST by BfloGuy (The past is like a different country, they do things different there.)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
An analogy may make it easier to see. Suppose you have a big department store in a town that was very popular. This store offered a place for the local clothing and goods suppliers to sell their products, and in return asked for a 30% cut for the store. Now this system worked fine for many years, then one day some suppliers came in from out of town and, because of a quirk in the contracts, didn’t have to pay the store their 30% cut. At first these out-of-towners only made a few lower quality, inexpensive products and nobody was very concerned about them. After a while though, these out-of-towners started to improve. They slowly got into the higher priced and higher quality products and because they didn’t have to give the store a cut, they could beat everyone on price. The local suppliers worked feverishly to compete by cutting costs, then wages, then staffs, then products, but they couldn’t overcome the advantage the out-of-towners had on pricing. Then the store told the remaining local suppliers that they had to increase their cut to the store to 40% to keep it open. Soon the local suppliers were so financially weak that the out-of-towners could get any business they went after and the local suppliers started to disappear. In the end, the out-of-town suppliers had nearly all the business, and the store went bankrupt.

Free trade bump.

13 posted on 03/12/2004 6:47:53 PM PST by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: A. Pole
Thanks for the ping! Also, take a look at what Warren Buffet said - here
14 posted on 03/12/2004 6:51:17 PM PST by neutrino (Oderint dum metuant: Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.)
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To: det dweller too
Taxes, regulations, tastes, etc. are each irrelevant to the outsoucing issue.

IE, if taxes were 0% or 50%, it doesn't matter.

Modern outsourcing is due to differential wage rates - just one cost of business. To decrease that cost jobs are outsourced to lower wage areas, or illegals and mass immigration is insourced to depress wages at home for jobs that can't be imported.

It's a reality, it's govt. policy.

15 posted on 03/12/2004 6:55:28 PM PST by Shermy
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To: det dweller too
Isn't "offshoring" a compound word?

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/o/o0042200.html
16 posted on 03/12/2004 7:05:11 PM PST by TaxRelief (March 20. Fayetteville. FReep 'til you drop.)
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To: XBob
6 - So, where do the imports contribute to the upkeep of the 'store'?

The analogy ends before that, but to continue it: The out-of-towners then buy the store and bring all the rest of their goods over. They set up a system for every supplier to pay a fee, but then give their suppliers a secret rebate with bank transfers back in their home town. They may be unscrutable but they are not stupid.

17 posted on 03/12/2004 7:31:11 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: BfloGuy
I am certainly no fan of the current income tax system, but I just don't see what this would accomplish.

Perhaps you missed the dynamics. First the income tax is removed for the domestics, then a tax on the product is added for everyone. That makes the cost basis for the products either the same or much closer to equal. now the imports can't undercut the domestics into bankruptcy.

If I make a widget for $10 and the domestic can't make it for less than $13 then I can sell it for $12.50 and watch him starve to death trying to compete while I thrive. If it costs both of us $13 then we have the basis for real free trade.

18 posted on 03/12/2004 7:43:11 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: Shermy
Did you read the post or just skim the title?
19 posted on 03/12/2004 7:48:00 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: det dweller too
Yes, I read it.

I think it's very good.

Except I don't think it's the cure for outsourcing IT and service industry jobs.
20 posted on 03/12/2004 7:59:17 PM PST by Shermy
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: det dweller too
Perhaps you missed the dynamics. First the income tax is removed for the domestics, then a tax on the product is added for everyone

What you are talking about is a "Value Added Tax." In every country that ever instituted a VAT income taxes were never repealed.

22 posted on 03/12/2004 8:16:19 PM PST by Texasforever (I apologize in advance)
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To: det dweller too
I may agree if only those commodities from overseas, and not domestically produced commodities, carried the commodity tax.

23 posted on 03/12/2004 8:29:35 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: djreece
marking
24 posted on 03/12/2004 8:56:41 PM PST by djreece
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To: GeekDejure
This guy is selling a book.

Some of the overview is refutable, some is suspect owing to old decisions that may not apply to the system we have now. What he says about excise taxes is true enough. And the hints about the effect of being involved with the social security set of statutory rights dovetails with the maxim that if you have rights, inalienable or statutory, you must have responsibilities.

He seems unaware of the logical effects on the states and citizens after the South lost the war and citizenship was awarded at the federal level.

It ought to be an interesting read. This is a fact, I think, somewhere around the middle of the last century, the character of the relationship between American citizens and their government changed.

25 posted on 03/12/2004 9:25:12 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: A. Pole; B4Ranch; Sabertooth; JackelopeBreeder
That story describes perfectly the scenario of "the out-of-towners" undercutting the "locals" into bankruptcy.

"Out-of-towners" being cheap foreign labor and products and "locals" being native American businesses and people going bankrupt.

What we are witnessing is the fortunes of America being sucked off to overseas with the blessings of our own government.

IMHO, this will continue, regardless of whatever regime sits in the Oval Office.

26 posted on 03/12/2004 10:28:46 PM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S.A. - - United We Stand - - Divided We Fall - - Support Our Troops - - Vote BUSH)
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To: Texasforever
In every country that ever instituted a VAT income taxes were never repealed.

Well that sucks! But I don't think it is cast in stone. Honestly though, I don't think democrats will ever let go of income taxes. But given that, perhaps they can go back to the original income tax that started at 5X the median income. Today that would be about @200,000. Back to partisan politics briefly, if they loose a lot of seats this time their agreeability to income tax changes like this will come way up.

27 posted on 03/12/2004 10:55:00 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: det dweller too
Back to partisan politics briefly, if they loose a lot of seats this time their agreeability to income tax changes like this will come way up.

I am afraid that with democrats the love for taxes is genetic.

28 posted on 03/12/2004 10:58:46 PM PST by Texasforever (I apologize in advance)
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To: Shermy
Except I don't think it's the cure for outsourcing IT and service industry jobs.

No, it's simple. There is a commodity tax, like a value added tax on the service. When the company invoices for the service, be it from a phone bank in Bombay or down the street, a percentage goes to uncle sam, because this is where the service was purchased. And the commodity service can be at different rates for different commoditys. A simple customer support function is one rate and professional help like medical X ray analysis work could be another.

29 posted on 03/12/2004 11:02:46 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: William Terrell
I may agree if only those commodities from overseas, and not domestically produced commodities, carried the commodity tax.

Then that would simply be a tariff, and as we have seen countless times, tariffs cause resentment and trade wars that are costly and they simply don't work anymore. But by reducing our income taxes first that would take down the fixed cost imbedded in our manufactured goods, then we simply add the tax back on the goods for everyone. Now there is no basis for a trade war since they are asked to pay a tax that we are nlso paying. They will not like it, but they have no Legitimate complaint.

30 posted on 03/12/2004 11:25:09 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: det dweller too
If you want a realistic solution then the weak dollar is the most flexible.
31 posted on 03/12/2004 11:28:04 PM PST by Texasforever (I apologize in advance)
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To: det dweller too
There is no such thing as free trade. Many of us have demonstrated that until we are blue in the face. Free trade means we can freely sell our stuff in foreign markets as they can here. We can't because they will not let us!

Yes, the United States, state and local governments impose costs on business. Many of these are fundamental health and safety costs. Our buildings are inspected during construction to make sure they don't fall down. We have to have fire alarms and lighted exit signs and sprinkler systems.

We have stringent electrical codes to avoid hazardous situations that could electrocute people and/or burn down buildings and houses.

We require two exits so people aren't trapped and trampled getting out in an emergency.

What you foolish free traitors don't realize is many foreign countries place ZERO value on human health and life. NO FREE COUNTRY PLACING VALUE ON HEALTH AND LIFE CAN COMPETE WITH THOSE TREATING HUMAN WORKERS AS EXPENDABLE.

The value of the lives of human beings in China and India is nearly zero to their governments and businesses.

You people who think the export of all manufacturing from America is just fine and dandy are dangerously misled and have spent too much time with your noses in textbooks.

America is racing to the economic bottom and you are too blind to see it.

32 posted on 03/13/2004 4:16:28 AM PST by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: det dweller too
Agree - adjust taxes on corporations that claim to avoid taxes (really evade) by setting up shams in off shore no0n tax countries IE Bermuda. These folks channel income to other entities off shore and thus avoid both corp and personal taxes while W2 and 1099 Taxpayers foot the bill.
33 posted on 03/13/2004 5:10:15 AM PST by Henchman (I Hench, therefore I am!)
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To: The Duke
Bump! Great idea, but also limit outsourcing / offshoring to a percentage above what the US sends there. Then there would be room for growth and the country couldn't claim we short changed them. Indeed it is we who are being short changed. WHAT GETS ONSHORED??????????... or is that an idalist's dream, like Socialism
34 posted on 03/13/2004 5:55:57 AM PST by Henchman (I Hench, therefore I am!)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
Well I know you are angry and I think you are agreeing with me, although you are trying not to.

I am suggesting this tax structure because we can't tell other countries to follow our laws and regulations. What I am saying is that for anybody selling products HERE You will pay for the infrastructure of keeping this place HERE. Then domestic companies will have those costs REMOVED from their cost overhead. Now the domestic company can compete wil anyone, even slave labor if necessary.

35 posted on 03/13/2004 6:17:37 AM PST by det dweller too
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To: XBob
And the free traitors don't begin to understand this [that "none of these costs are born on products and services that are (imported) sold here"].

Maybe they understand far more about international tax law than you.

36 posted on 03/13/2004 6:25:41 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
America is racing to the economic bottom and you are too blind to see it.

we're doomed

37 posted on 03/13/2004 6:27:10 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Henchman
Well, the secret here is if you fix the instability in the tax structure correctly, then everything will take care of itself and extre tinkering and fixing won't be necessary. This is the KISS approach."Keep It Simple Stupid". Everyone selling in the market pays for having the market there, not just the people who live nearby.
38 posted on 03/13/2004 6:28:46 AM PST by det dweller too
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
"America is racing to the economic bottom and you are too blind to see it."

If anyone is driving America to the economic bottom, it is those people who are trying to hold on to third world jobs in the name of maintaining a first world standard of living.

39 posted on 03/13/2004 6:40:19 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: det dweller too
Your argument is logical, but far too many people have an emotional and political investment in taxing income. In fact, this investment is an article of faith so strong as to take on religious overtones amoung those who believe in a redistribution of income.
41 posted on 03/13/2004 6:57:20 AM PST by quadrant
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To: Motherbear
If programing can be successfully done by people of third world nations, cheaper than can be done here, then those programing jobs became third world nation jobs. Stands to logical scrutiny.

It's economic suicide to try hanging on to them.

Does holding on to stock that continues to depreciate in value make for a good investment strategy?
42 posted on 03/13/2004 7:15:49 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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To: det dweller too
"If we want to have a stable society again, what we need to do is reduce personal and corporate income taxes and add the equivalent in commodity taxes."

So, your solution is to stop stealing from my right pocket, and begin stealing from the left one?

In effect, you want foreign companies to come and build factories on US soil, thus working within the advantage of your system...the Toyota USA model...bringing about the inevitable: rather than employing foreigners overseas to gain a sustained competitive advantage in the world stage, we will instead sell our native market to foreign corporations, who, by virtue of their ability to sell their wares to the rest of the world unemcumbered by competition from US manufacturers, will have far greater financial resources than US industries and the wherewithal to build factories State side.

End result, rather than employing foreigners to work for us, we will be employed by foreigners.

Yeah...that will save America.

43 posted on 03/13/2004 7:24:12 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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To: Motherbear
"...while service-sector jobs like flipping burgers will maintain our high standard of living?"

So, people can either program software or flip burgers?

How come those are the only two jobs you all can see in the American economy?

44 posted on 03/13/2004 7:26:24 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: Happy2BMe
IMHO, this will continue, regardless of whatever regime sits in the Oval Office.

As long as that regime is Republican or Democrat. And by the time that the people decide it's time to change, if they ever decide that, it will be too late to reverse the trend.

46 posted on 03/13/2004 7:57:42 AM PST by templar
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To: ItisaReligionofPeace
Free trade benefits all.

Since there is no such thing as free trade (otherwise there would be no fight for it) prove that the free trade theory works. Give us an example of free trade and how it benefits all. Not an explanation of the theory but rather a concrete example.

47 posted on 03/13/2004 8:38:46 AM PST by raybbr (My 1.4 cents - It used to be 2 cents, but after taxes - you get the idea.)
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To: Motherbear
"Even then, the Houston medical center is filled with immigrant doctors who--as far as I can tell--are hanging around."

So, making more doctors available for our people is a bad thing?

48 posted on 03/13/2004 9:11:54 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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To: Texasforever
What you are talking about is a "Value Added Tax."

Maybe, but if he is he is barking up the wrong tree. A Vat tax is applied at every level of production from raw material to assembly. Thus there would be WAY more taxes bundled into a totally domestically created product as opposed to a competive foreign product that could only be taxed at the final retail sale.

I thought he meant a federal retail sales tax, but actually I'm not sure he knows just WHAT he means.

49 posted on 03/13/2004 9:43:15 AM PST by iconoclast
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To: iconoclast
BTW, IMO, the Vat idea is an insidious piece of treachery. An absolute humongous amount of revenue can potentially be produced by it and the sheeple are dumb and happy since almost all of it is HIDDEN.

Naturally, it goes over big in Europe.

50 posted on 03/13/2004 9:52:38 AM PST by iconoclast
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