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McJobs mistake / Sorry, but burger flipping isn't manufacturing
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ^ | Saturday, March 13, 2004 | Editorial

Posted on 03/13/2004 10:02:29 AM PST by Willie Green

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:35:35 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Since George W. Bush became president the economy has lost 2.8 million factory jobs, but his administration is floating an idea that could dramatically boost manufacturing jobs overnight. It sounds too good to be true. And it is.

The presidential proposition wouldn't actually create any new jobs but would reclassify them and thereby swell job statistics in a declining sector of the economy. Poof! Problem solved.


(Excerpt) Read more at post-gazette.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: globalism; mcjobs; thebusheconomy
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1 posted on 03/13/2004 10:02:31 AM PST by Willie Green
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To: Willie Green
How to Lie with Statistics.
2 posted on 03/13/2004 10:03:59 AM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: Willie Green
The presidential proposition . . .

Those editors sure are good with them words [sic].

3 posted on 03/13/2004 10:05:54 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Willie Green
All jobs are service jobs. Employees provide a service to their employers, which has a market value. Judging jobs by the nature of their output is a marxist concept.
4 posted on 03/13/2004 10:08:37 AM PST by Moonman62
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To: Willie Green
I heard this the other day on John and Ken. Willie, if we only knew the truth of it, I'll bet this tactic has been used broadly in the last ten years. There's simply no way the manufacturing numbers are not being misrepresented. They actually show an increase in numbers. If anyone is buying that, I've got some great Florida bottom-land I'd love to move.
5 posted on 03/13/2004 10:09:46 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Moonman62
So watching economic sectors (job existance) is now Marxist? Thanks for the humor.
6 posted on 03/13/2004 10:11:18 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Willie Green; A. Pole; B4Ranch; Sabertooth; JackelopeBreeder; dennisw; Spiff

"Since George W. Bush became president the economy has lost 2.8 million factory jobs, but his administration is floating an idea that could dramatically boost manufacturing jobs overnight. It sounds too good to be true. And it is."

There's that word again - JOBS.

7 posted on 03/13/2004 10:11:45 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S.A. - - United We Stand - - Divided We Fall - - Support Our Troops - - Vote BUSH)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: DoughtyOne
There's simply no way the manufacturing numbers are not being misrepresented. They actually show an increase in numbers. If anyone is buying that, I've got some great Florida bottom-land I'd love to move.

Statements of conjecture without evidence or numbers are misrepresentations, too.

'They actually show an increase in number.' Your link to that substantiate that is where?
9 posted on 03/13/2004 10:13:41 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: Willie Green
I will always remember Bush saying on "Cinco de Mayo" that he only wants "gooderer" service jobs in America .....
10 posted on 03/13/2004 10:15:14 AM PST by Yasotay
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To: Moonman62
Those "burger flippers" require manufactured products in order to do their jobs, from spatulas to ketchup, ice cream cones to paper bags. Their jobs are only one tiny part of the total economic and employment picture that is the so-called "service" industry. Every McDonald's is furnished with carpet, chairs, tables, flooring, lighting, etc., largely manufactured in the USA, installed by American skilled workers, regularly cleaned and maintained using US-manufactured products, e.g., vacuum cleaners, mops, soaps, etc. I find it curious that the poor ol' burger flipper's job is so maligned and its importance to the "big picture" so discounted.
11 posted on 03/13/2004 10:15:44 AM PST by mountaineer
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To: TomGuy
Heh heh heh, nice try Tom. I don't have to provide links to make a comment on this forum and welcome you thinking I'm not accurate if you like. Thanks for playing.
12 posted on 03/13/2004 10:16:30 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Willie Green
I had a poster (from Modern Material Handling or Production Magazine, I think) about twenty-five years ago on my wall at work that showed a Big Mac and asked "Is this the future of American manufacturing?" I don't know what I did with it and wish I could find it.
13 posted on 03/13/2004 10:18:59 AM PST by Chi-townChief
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: DoughtyOne
You can watch all you want. As to whether burger flippers are manufacturers makes no difference whatsoever in a market economy. Drawing attention to the issue by GWB is a big political mistake that is sure to draw the ire of the hammer and sickle crowd.
15 posted on 03/13/2004 10:23:01 AM PST by Moonman62
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To: DoughtyOne
I don't have to provide links to make a comment on this forum and welcome you thinking I'm not accurate if you like.

Are you sure you aren't John Kerry, lurking?????
16 posted on 03/13/2004 10:24:14 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: Willie Green
"When a fast-food restaurant sells a hamburger, for example," the report asks, "is it providing a 'service' or is it combining inputs to 'manufacture a product?' "

Actually, when you put it that way, it sort of makes sense. And in a world where a jar of urine with a crucifix floating in it is classified as art, why shouldn't we classify fast food as manufacturing?

17 posted on 03/13/2004 10:25:31 AM PST by irv
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To: Willie Green
and yet the unemployment rate remains 5.6%
18 posted on 03/13/2004 10:25:44 AM PST by petercooper (Florida 2000: Bush 2,912,790 - Gore 2,912,253)
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To: Willie Green
I've heard all about these burger-flipping jobs. Here's my question, though: Doesn't somebody have to buy the burger? Who are the burger-flippers selling burgers to -- other burger-flippers?
19 posted on 03/13/2004 10:27:45 AM PST by Tricorn
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To: TomGuy
Did you think you first post didn't convey your message well enough? It must be sad to be so unsure of yourself.
20 posted on 03/13/2004 10:28:39 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: petercooper
I read an interesting editorial the other day that, unfortunately, I did not see posted here. It described the manner in which the jobs rate is calculated, using what is called (if I remember correctly) the Payroll Survey. It involves contacting businesses to determine if they have added to their payroll. The other means of measurement was called the Household Survey (I think), which involves calling households to verify employment. The latter was not being widely used to determine the employment rate. The point of the article was that the customary means of measuring employment (payroll) generally will omit self-employed individuals and new businesses. According to the author, the Household index results in very different employment figures. If in fact the job statistics being tossed around do not reflect self-employment and start up businesses, then they likely are not an accurate measurement of current employment. I am sure someone can explain this better (and with more detail and accurate recollection) than I have, but that was the gist of the article.
21 posted on 03/13/2004 10:33:36 AM PST by GraceCoolidge
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To: petercooper
My wife was a volunteer coordinator for fourteen years. During that time she came in contact with the welfare to work program. I don't know the total specifics of the program, but the idea was to pay the recipient minimum wage for working part time. This was supposed to introduce them into the work community, and obtain them full-time employment. Sadly, the types of candidates my wife dealt with would hardly ever become full time emplyees. They were misfits and unsuited to the professional work environment.

Then I read an article one day that mentioned that these people are considered workers and taken off the welfare rolls. They still get welfare, and yet they were only working 8 to 16 hours per week. None the less, their numbers are reduced from welfare rolls and included in the employment figures.

Take that 5.6% with at least a little grain of salt fella.
22 posted on 03/13/2004 10:35:07 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: GraceCoolidge
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1096632/posts
23 posted on 03/13/2004 10:36:49 AM PST by petercooper (Florida 2000: Bush 2,912,790 - Gore 2,912,253)
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To: petercooper
Aha! Thank you... wonder how I missed this.
24 posted on 03/13/2004 10:37:48 AM PST by GraceCoolidge
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To: Yasotay
I will always remember Bush saying on "Cinco de Mayo" that he only wants "gooderer" service jobs in America .....

Invest in a box of Q-tips....the President actually used the words "GOOD OR SERVICE"!

25 posted on 03/13/2004 10:39:17 AM PST by RasterMaster (Saddam's family was a WMD - Voting DEMOCRAT can be hazardous to your health!)
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To: 1rudeboy
> The presidential proposition . . .

Those editors sure are good with them words [sic].

I can only guess you disapprove of the word "proposition" here. If so, why? Webster's #1 definition says it's a synonym for "proposal." That seems to be the intended meaning here.

26 posted on 03/13/2004 10:45:04 AM PST by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things!)
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To: Willie Green
I just love weasel words. Fast food jobs were traditionally held by students, retirees, and housewifes. They were never intended to support a family, unlike a manufacturing position.
27 posted on 03/13/2004 10:46:11 AM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
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To: DoughtyOne
and how many could that be - thousands? wouldn't make a bit of difference in the u/e rate
28 posted on 03/13/2004 10:49:51 AM PST by petercooper (Florida 2000: Bush 2,912,790 - Gore 2,912,253)
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To: Tricorn
Here's my question, though: Doesn't somebody have to buy the burger? Who are the burger-flippers selling burgers to -- other burger-flippers?

In some parts, yes. In some areas, the job base is overwhelmingly service positions paying little more than minimum wage.

29 posted on 03/13/2004 10:52:52 AM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
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To: petercooper
I'm not sure why would would think only thousands of these positions are out there nationwide. My wife had 30 of them at any give time. That's at one location.

Another problem area is the area of retraining. If I'm not mistaken, a person on welfare who particiaptes in a retraining program or a vocational program, they are also considered employed.

These little tricks play havock with those of us who try to keep an eye on things.

It's all a game to them. If the INS seriously screws up, you change the name, reorginze and pretend things are a lot better. In fact they aren't. It's the old shell game. Those on the street get arrested for playing it. Our politicians get fat salaries, great medical benefits and great retirement plans for doing the same thing.
30 posted on 03/13/2004 10:57:44 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: DoughtyOne
I've dealt with those work to welfare employees. Some of these "ladies" should never be put behind a teller window, or on the phone for customer service. They should be in the back, stocking shelves somewhere, so the rest of us don't have to put up with their lack of social graces.

I remember several years ago, when I had to transfer all my mom's bank accounts into one conservatorship account. I was waited on by a young woman with gang tattooes on her hands and there was a little teardrop by her eye, at a particular financial institution. Not exactly what I want to see handling money. She was also dumb as a sack of dead kittens, with the personality to match.

I left wondering how much the government paid these folks to hire such a person.

Is it me, or is there something wrong with the font. It's been coming up bold, and I didn't do anything...honest!
31 posted on 03/13/2004 11:01:51 AM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
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To: Willie Green
One they missed...When the prez puts his name on a piece of paper other than an autograph, guess he must be Manufacturing a Document...

But then that would have to be a blue collar job...Oh well, works for me...
32 posted on 03/13/2004 11:05:54 AM PST by Iscool
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To: TheSpottedOwl
As for how much they get paid, it's minimum wages or close to it. These folks are not force on the business concern. Some well-meaning idiot may have used poor judgement in the case you mentioned.

Try closing or opening your browser. If that doesn't work, you may need to power down and back up.

There's something going on that has created an anomoly with your system. I've had that happen to me at times.
33 posted on 03/13/2004 11:08:07 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: DoughtyOne
yes some politicians are crooks.

but there are always going to be unemployables
34 posted on 03/13/2004 11:08:34 AM PST by petercooper (Florida 2000: Bush 2,912,790 - Gore 2,912,253)
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To: Willie Green
I'm really taken aback. Geeesss, after twenty five years of manufacturing jobs going to Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, China and every other nickle an hour slave labor country, people are finally waking up to the fact that we're not producing much. When Americans refuse low pay jobs in place of welfare, what can we expect.
35 posted on 03/13/2004 11:09:17 AM PST by Smartass
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To: RasterMaster
While Bush spoke well after 9-11, his speaking skills leave something to be desired. He may have wanted to say "Good or Service" jobs but that is not how it was spoken. Being on Cinco de Mayo did not help .... neither will Q-tips.
36 posted on 03/13/2004 11:16:47 AM PST by Yasotay
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To: Willie Green
Willie when are you going to get a job and quit bitching about the economy? My personal economy is pretty damn great these days. Yours might be to if you focused on the positive and what you can do rather than on how its impossible for the middle class to make a living these days.
37 posted on 03/13/2004 11:27:16 AM PST by Dave S
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To: petercooper
I agree with that. What you and I should try to do is be reasonable, and I think we are.

The unemployment figures are unquestionably skewed. I first became aware of this when Bill Clinton was showing the best employment records in thirty years. What had he done to achieve that. I began to keep my eye out for things and sure enough, some issues popped up that explained at least part of it. It was bogus then. The figures are bogus today as well.

The largest growth sector in the United States is the service sector. The lowest jobs (salary wise) exist in the service sector. We are losing manufacturing jobs and gaining service sector jobs. That's just a fact of today's working environment.

For the record, as for this being Bush's fault, it's no more his than it was Clinton's. The policies put in place by both parties have encouraged job transfers out of the United States. Tax breaks and profit incentives have made it nearly impossible to compete with other businesses in your field, you don't close plants and move off-shore. Therefore massive migration off-shore has occurred.

Several years ago a guy on this forum pointed me to the statistic chart for employment in the United States. Sure enough, you could take a look at that chart and see where the manufacturing job sector continued to show growth, while plants moved offshore at record paces. There had to be something wrong with that chart or the stats that backed it.

You can't close down manufacturing plant after manufacturing plant, outsource clerical work and certain management services, then tell me there hasn't been a net drain on our nation's employment and manufacturing sectors.

Then there's the problem of workers making far less wages and having far less benefits because they are now working service sector jobs. This impacts families and our society.

How many one worker families do you know of? Is that impacted by federal, state and corporate policy or isn't it? I think the work environment we see today is a direct result of the policies that have been devised and implemented. Frankly I don't want many policies governing the work sector, but then I don't want it to get to the place where mothers and fathers working full time still can't bring in enough money to suppport their families. In that type of environment children would have to pitch in also. Is that what we want? I'm not convinced that's not where we're headed.

Look, I'm not a labor union rep. I've been a conservative all my life. That doesn't mean that I don't think there can be abuses in the employment sector of our economy. In today's economy, I do think there are some pretty devistating policies in play. I think the nation is paying heavily for that.

People who make less money pay less taxes. People who make less salary are more often going to be a drain on society than a healthy contributor to it. I believe there is a lot of downward pressure on the middle class right now.

Moving jobs offshore and flooding the nation with illegals has what effect on wages in the U.S.?
38 posted on 03/13/2004 11:28:18 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Willie Green
Sorry, but burger flipping isn't manufacturing

The Build-a-burger family would disagree.

39 posted on 03/13/2004 11:28:38 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: DoughtyOne
I rebooted, but ended up readjusting my settings. It seems to be okay now. Thanks!

After I posted my reply about bank tellers, I remembered that my oldest daughter papered the community down here with resumes. She and her now husband had just moved out here from CT, and she's been steadily employed; at one point by a stock broker. She's articulate, dresses well, and has good job skills. Nada. Nothing. Then you see what I described. I know for a fact that the government will give "consideration" to employers who hire welfare clients.

I don't want to seem mean spirited, but some of these "clients" have no business waiting on the public.
40 posted on 03/13/2004 11:28:53 AM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
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To: mountaineer
Those are good points.

However at least in reference to American-made furniture, articles posted in recent months on FR indicate that only high-tariffs are keeping Chinese furniture from taking over the U.S. market. In one article:

Imports make up almost 75 percent of the domestic market for wood and metal furniture, with 41 percent of those imports coming from China, according to a December 2002 research report by UBS Warburg.

41 posted on 03/13/2004 11:29:53 AM PST by gg188
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To: Willie Green
Hey Willie the Nader campaign is looking for you. Chump!
42 posted on 03/13/2004 11:31:51 AM PST by John Lenin (John Flip'n Kerry: Two Candidates for the price of one)
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To: DoughtyOne
Agree with everything you say. Close the borders now to illegals. Stop overtaxing hardworking Americans to death.

Also draining tax dollars - the many many people working o-t-b not paying a nickel in income tax while collecting u/e and being counted in the u/e figures. Infuriating.
43 posted on 03/13/2004 11:40:36 AM PST by petercooper (Florida 2000: Bush 2,912,790 - Gore 2,912,253)
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To: TheSpottedOwl
I'm sure there is some back-scratching going on, by the government in relation to who hires these people. I just meant to say they are not forced into it. Still, if there's a tax-break or some other benefit, you're somewhat forced into it to take advantage.

As for your daughter, it seems the things she brings to the table are just not what is being sought these days. It's the main reason why I say that the current economic situation is a blight on this nation. If we're not going to hire our best and brightest, compensating them reasonably, what have we become? What will we be?

Thanks for the comments.

Glad your computer is okay.
44 posted on 03/13/2004 11:42:11 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Willie Green
>The presidential proposition wouldn't actually create any new
>jobs but would reclassify them and thereby swell job
>statistics in a declining sector of the economy. Poof!
>Problem solved.
>Incredible as it seems, the Bush administration is pointedly
>questioning whether flipping hamburgers should be included in
>jobs associated with factory work or remain classified as
>part of the service sector.

You have got to be kidding me. Is Bush deliberately trying to lose this election?
45 posted on 03/13/2004 11:47:37 AM PST by applemac_g4
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To: Larry Lucido
LOL, get outa here... that's Mor gan we wanted to know.
46 posted on 03/13/2004 11:50:17 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Yasotay
Perhaps you were just not listening...or have a hearing disability.
47 posted on 03/13/2004 11:50:35 AM PST by RasterMaster (Saddam's family was a WMD - Voting DEMOCRAT can be hazardous to your health!)
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To: A. Pole
You're not going to believe this one.
48 posted on 03/13/2004 11:56:08 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: RasterMaster
I can hear just fine, Bush clearly has done everything possible to destory manufacturing in America. As Bush gets tongue-tied, you can hear what you want to hear and while Bush may confuse a Big Mac with manufacturing, I don't.
49 posted on 03/13/2004 11:59:54 AM PST by Yasotay
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To: Willie Green
Bankruptcy filings set record

March 13, 2004

One out of every 73 U.S. households filed for bankruptcy last year, a record high, despite historically low interest rates, the American Bankruptcy Institute said.

"Despite enjoying the sustained benefit of low interest rates, growing numbers of U.S. consumers are facing difficulty in meeting their monthly obligations," ABI Executive Director Samuel Gerdano said.

U.S. households had $10.4 trillion in debt outstanding at the end of last year, although debt accumulation slowed toward year's end, according to data from the Federal Reserve.

Last month, the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts said there were 1,660,245 personal bankruptcies last year. It was a record for any calendar year, but off slightly from the all-time 12-month high reached in the period ended in September.

Reuters

link

------------------------------------------

Offshoring is making us rich, rich, rich! Unemployment is down! Pay no attention to those bankruptcies behind the curtain!

50 posted on 03/13/2004 12:00:48 PM PST by neutrino (Oderint dum metuant: Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.)
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