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Help me rebut my lib uncle's scathing Bush thrashing (how would you respond?)
a flaming neocommunist ^ | 4 11 04 | paulsy

Posted on 04/11/2004 6:26:12 AM PDT by paulsy

My uncle and I have it out regularly and he sent me this note last night. I have ideas on what to say to him but wonder if anyone has ideas on what to write back.

"Paul- The Shrub you so blindly follow is a mean-spirited greedy idiot, and you can't blame mainstream media sources for finally recognizing his lack of clothing. ..."

He was not elected by a majority, he was anointed by a fiercely right wing supreme court majority, most of whom owe their positions to the Shrub man's father and party, undermining the court's legitimacy and that of the Shrub's administration. He has kept the country in fear since 9/11 and sought to campaign as a WAR president, because most war presidents have an easier time passing legislation and getting reelected. He even created a war for that purpose. Remember, it was leaked before the mid-term election, by a White House source, that the sudden irrational run up to the war with Iraq was a matter of "marketing". On the way to Iraq he undid decades' of diplomacy and alienated all of our traditional allies and others whose support we might have expected, except for those he bought or frightened into being "willing". Now, as the biggest gunslinger on the block, we as a country can expect to be the target of every oppressed political animal in the world with weapons and imagination. Oh yeah, we've also lost our position (as if we ever really held or deserved it) as the beacon of hope and freedom for the world. We are undeniably a world bully now, and there is no realistic chance of a meaningful international consensus on any issue while the Shrub Man speaks for us.

You might be thinking of saying "well, Sadam was bad and his demise and capture are good things." (Shrub Man borrows from Martha Stewart, if you didn't notice.) The same thing could have, and I think would have, happened had Shrub Man not announced to the world that he was going to do it with or without international support. Indeed, for many years even Arab countries wanted to get rid of him but we( R's and D's) helped put Sadam in power and protected him.

And just think, so far at least five times as many people have died in the Shrub's dirty little war as died in 9/11. ( Hell, the tobacco industry kills as many people as died in 9/11, EVERY 2 1/2 DAYS). People continue dying every day in the war while Shrub Man hunkers down in the safest and most luxurious places on earth, bellowing "BRING IT ON !".

As for the different views on whether Shrub Man's tax policies add up, I certainly don't know whose math is right. I know the Washington Times is not considered by most people to be objective or main stream; it is decidedly right wing. (Wasn't it started up to punish the Washington Post for exposing Watergate?) I'm no fan of Newsweek either; with very few exceptions it repeats whatever the powers-that-be want it to. However, wasn't Newsweek reporting on the total federal income tax bills while the W. Times only mentions the effect of isolated provisions? If so, both of their math calculations could be correct, but the W Times is comparing apples to oranges. A more meaningful analysis would include the necessary increases in state, local and sales taxes. The fact is Shrub Man has not only made the tax structure more regressive, his wildly irresponsible spending and tax cutting for the rich have greatly increased the tax burden for future generations, and put the economy in peril for the foreseeable future.

Paul, what I think is going on is that the mainstream media and a lot of the country have been giving Shrub Man "WAR president" status since 9/11, along with the benefit of every doubt, since that is what happens when a president is responding to an emergency. Shrub Man, and his shrubbers, took full advantage of this status to advance their political agenda (check out wages, health care, education, the environment, individual rights, or anything else they could sell out) without the normal scrutiny radical changes would normally be subject to, and are running the country into the dirt. Shrub Man killed his golden goose by trying to crassly campaign as a "WAR president", and he's been called on it. He can't fool most of the people all of the time. Now, finally, the normal scrutiny is returning, eyes are opening, the emperor is nekkid, and he is only starting to get the attention he deserves. Open your eyes and get used to it. Julian is right and you seem so be looking for some sand to put your head in.

I think there may be other explanations for your reduced tax bill, if you would be candid about it. I know my tax bill is down, but that's because as a lawyer representing poor and working people who've had their civil rights violated under a regime that favors only rich and corporate interests, my income is down. I give Shrub Man full credit.

I'm yellow dog with a full bladder who's found his Shrub. BRING IT ON!

(Excerpt) Read more at nopage.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: 2000election; angryliberals; bushbashers; idiotuncle; iraqwar
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To: paulsy
All you have there is a BUSH HATER on your hands. Remember they chose to be willfully ignorant on what they believe and usually have no basis in fact to back up their claims...

I would just ask the putz uncle of yours to back his stupid claims up with facts and end with why he so fiercly HATES a Pres. trying to defend his right to hate without getting his head chopped off like in some of these terrorist controled regions of the world if you speak out against the leader. What gives "him" the right to do that?

That one will make all his illusion go straight down the drain.

21 posted on 04/11/2004 6:39:25 AM PDT by sirchtruth
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: paulsy
Anyone who "argues" by screaming "Shrub" over and over can not be reasoned with. Get a large stick, and beat your uncle with it every day for a month. If his conduct has not improved after a month, sic your dog on him.
23 posted on 04/11/2004 6:39:48 AM PDT by per loin (This tagline has not been censored!)
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To: BabsC
"But I sorta agree with the first two responses, your uncle's opinion will not be changed with facts"

I appreciate this, but actually his opinions do and have changed on occassion. I guess, one thing I'm interested in, his arguments are pretty typical of the left and I'd like some ammo for future reference. I understand that some people are beyond reach, and that's fine, but a lot of middle-ground people buy into this kind of thing or are at least influenced enough by it to change their votes, i.e. "where there's smoke there must be fire" etc. 367 votes in a battleground state can make a difference, and I fully expect to go to one of those states around election time, and while there I will talk with as many people as I can.

24 posted on 04/11/2004 6:40:05 AM PDT by paulsy
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To: paulsy
Five things.

1. Your uncle is an idiot.
2. The decision in the Supreme Court was 7-2 that what was happening in Florida was wrong. It was 5-4 that there was time to do something about it.
3. 50 Million liberated. According to the libs, 5000 people a month were "starving to death" due to the UN sanctions on Iraq before the war.
4. 300,000 dead in mass graves in Iraq, and more to discover.
5. Your uncle is an idiot.
25 posted on 04/11/2004 6:40:10 AM PDT by bootyist-monk (<--------------------- Republican Attack Machine)
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To: tiamat
Send him the phone numbers and address of all of the local mental health organizations. The only real cure is for these idjuts to experience first hand living under Islamist fundmentalist rule. By their actions, this is what they truly want. They'd better think a little more what they wish for.
26 posted on 04/11/2004 6:41:10 AM PDT by listenhillary (terrorism n. systematic use of violence to intimidate or coerce societies or governments)
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To: Rocko
I agree. I cannot even have a conversation with my own parents about the issue. It leads nowhere but hard feelings. He's (the uncle) obviously so far gone from reality that the truth would never sink in. Sorry to have to be so pessimistic about it, but you're better not even engaging in this. For what purpose? Nothing will be gained.
27 posted on 04/11/2004 6:41:11 AM PDT by Shery (S. H. in APOland)
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To: paulsy
Did he like the supreme court when it okayed Roe V Wade, school busing, affirmative action, or is it just SOME decisions he doesn't like...
28 posted on 04/11/2004 6:43:10 AM PDT by ronnieb
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To: Gorzaloon
I agree with everyone who says "ignore the comments." In addition, I am reminded about what Christ said about not casting pearls before swine.
29 posted on 04/11/2004 6:43:15 AM PDT by rudy45
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To: paulsy
'he was anointed by a fiercely right wing supreme court majority'

This point is one that really bothers me. How could a fiercely right wing supreme court have upheld Lawrence vs TX, and some of the other rulings that have come out?

30 posted on 04/11/2004 6:43:18 AM PDT by mathluv (Protect my grandchildren's future. Vote for Bush/Cheney '04.)
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To: paulsy
If you want to get his goat simply laugh at him and matter of factly say, "you're a moron."

If you want a short and sweet rebuttal I would suggest something along the lines, "It's is pointless to debate your points when you start off with a statement like "the Supreme Court is predominantly conservative." No conservative OR liberal pundits on the planet would say something that stupid when the voting record of the SCOTUS ruling record has been far and away on the liberal side.

Take a pill and chill. Then get back to me.
31 posted on 04/11/2004 6:43:41 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom!)
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To: paulsy
Since you want to try, the first thing I'd do is hit him with the news reports of the results of the media consortium's recount results. Ask him if his boy won, why is it that he at no time actually held the lead in Florida. Ask him if "full, fair, and accurate" recount means blocking even the initial counting of military (known to vote Republican) votes and counting disqualified ballots in three out of 67 counties (surprise, the most heavily democrat infested counties). Ask him what's full, fair, and accurate about such selective counting, and by the way, what's full, fair or accurate about "devining the intent" of a voter who did not make a presidential selection on a ballot or who punched two selections.

I didn't read beyond the "Bush stole the election" garbage, so I won't address any of his other gripes.
32 posted on 04/11/2004 6:44:17 AM PDT by alnick
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To: paulsy
Actually, once you see the second sentence of your Uncle's email, you should know that the argument is over. Once that sentence takes hold in your debate partner's mind, you know their brainwashing is complete. Nothing you can say from that point forward will matter.
33 posted on 04/11/2004 6:44:52 AM PDT by cincinnati65 (Rooting for the Panthers since 1995.......)
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To: TheBattman
I tend to agree- someone this belligerent cannot be argued with. Yes never argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
34 posted on 04/11/2004 6:44:59 AM PDT by Free_at_last_-2001 (is clinton in jail yet?)
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To: paulsy
I would tell him the more he rants the more you love Bush.
35 posted on 04/11/2004 6:45:22 AM PDT by Big Horn (A waist is a terrible thing to mind.)
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To: paulsy
"I would just ask the putz uncle of yours to back his stupid claims up with facts and end with why he so fiercly HATES a Pres. trying to defend his right to hate "

Yes, agree.

But as an example there's one thing he says at the beginning, the whole "he lost the election" thing. I know that some news organizations went into Florida and had their own recounts, where Bush won in like 94 out of the 99 scenarious. Does anyone know where I can dig up that information? other things like that, factual things. He's an attorney and it gets under his skin when I cite facts that he can't refute.

36 posted on 04/11/2004 6:45:31 AM PDT by paulsy
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To: paulsy
Oh and by the way, they will view your "giving up" as their having won the debate.
37 posted on 04/11/2004 6:45:40 AM PDT by cincinnati65 (Rooting for the Panthers since 1995.......)
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To: paulsy
Are you & I related? LOL This sounds like my cousin. I get stuff from my cousin just like this. I just reply with a smiley face & tell him to "have a nice day". I also send him, without my comment, every article I can find on the good things happening in Iraq. I am sure he just hates to hear that kind of news. heh heh
38 posted on 04/11/2004 6:47:09 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: paulsy
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Friday, April 09, 2004

The first candle.
-
It’s the day that brought me back to life. It’s the 9th of April and I’m free, and they will not steel my joy again and they will not silence me. A year ago at the same date, the thieves and criminals prevented me from celebrating my freedom in the open air, and today thieves, criminals and fanatics are doing the same, but they will not steal my happiness that is making my soul fly and dance with joy and they can’t stop this.

A year ago, words failed me as I met the 1st American soldier, and I still remember his name, “corporal, Adam” and all I could utter was “thank you!” how could I ever put my whole life in few words? How could I have thanked that soldier enough? How could I have told him what it meant to me to see him and his comrades-who brought me back to life- at last? Thank you Adam, Lieutenant Antonio, Captain Brian Curtis and all the coalition soldiers who I can’t remember their names, and those I never met.

It’s the 9th of April and I feel safe! And I don’t care what those ‘political experts’ on the newspapers and TV channels, say about the ‘occupation’, deteriorated security and ‘unemployment’. You can’t understand this, because you never experienced real fear this long. Let me tell you about it, as I’m one of those who passed Saddam’s filthy test of life.
The statue fell and with it, horror fell. You don’t know what it means to be scared to death most of your life, brothers and sisters. I knew that and I faced it during the reign of evil and darkness. I was afraid to talk, I wasn't allowed to think and I wasn't allowed to feel…I wasn't allowed to love.

How dare anyone imply to me how should I feel? And who they think they are, those who try to put words in my mouth? I’m alive and I’m free, and I have the right to say whatever I feel and chose the words I like. No one will tell me again what to say and what to feel.
Yes, it’s the 9th of April. I lit the 1st candle today to celebrate my 1st year, as a free man and no one will prevent me from celebrating. I, who the earth is no longer enough to contain my feelings, I who have wings now, and I don’t have to carry an ID…I’m Iraqi. I have the right to wander through my country southwards and northwards, without being stopped by someone to ask me who I am and where I’m going. I’m the son of the 9th of April.

Years ago, when I was a fugitive, a Ba’athist who’s a friend of my father and a relative said to me mockingly “how long are you going to live like this!? Get out of this ‘hole’ and turn yourself in to the authorities and do your military service.” I looked at him and I couldn’t say anything, but my soul screamed inside me, “The day when your tyrant becomes a defeated fugitive will come. He will search for a hole to hide in, and I will own Iraq then”. And here comes the dream true!

I’m the son of the 9th of April, tyrant’s clowns, and you have to fear me, you who betrayed me every minute and every day, and you want to chain me again???
You know why it’s impossible now? I was a slave and I never knew who I am…. and now I’m free! Thanks to all who dared to tell the truth and didn’t fear the consequences. And as for you, who saved me and my people, I can’t thank you enough. My voice goes feeble and my eyes swell with tears as I think of the Iraqis, Americans and all the coalition soldiers who gave their lives to free Iraq and make this world a better place. God bless their souls and all those who decided to fight to the end and never been discouraged, even in the toughest moments. I hope you can call me brother, because I’ll never fail you, as you never failed me.
This time, the 9th of April has come again and in what way! The powers of darkness and evil are trying to stifle my candle with their foul breaths but this time I'm alive and free and I will face them, and I will lit it again and again …and again.

By Mohammed.
39 posted on 04/11/2004 6:47:23 AM PDT by listenhillary (terrorism n. systematic use of violence to intimidate or coerce societies or governments)
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To: sasquatch
The Florida election is meaningless because if Gore won his OWN HOME STATE, Florida would be a non-issue.

I live in Florida and that's what I tell the few mindless liberals I know that STILL bring this subject up.

They normally ignore that fact and keep babbling.

That's when I tell them "To Liberals facts REALLY don't matter, admit you just hate Bush"

These bumper stickers that say "Mean People Suck" must be made for liberals

Normally that pushes them over the edge.

Then I walk away

40 posted on 04/11/2004 6:47:34 AM PDT by JZoback
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