Wife: Soldiers in Iraqi Abuse Case Are Scapegoats

Reuters.com ^ | Tue May 4, 2004 10:45 AM ET | Sue Pleming

[antonia]

Wife: Soldiers in Iraqi Abuse Case Are Scapegoats

Tue May 4, 2004 10:45 AM ET

By Sue Pleming WASHINGTON (Reuters) –

U.S. soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners were following orders and are being used as scapegoats to protect their superiors, the wife of one of the soldiers and the lawyer for another said Tuesday.

Martha Frederick defended her husband, a soldier who faces prosecution for the abuse of Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

" He was told to do these things and when he did them he thought that he was doing them in the sense of national security," Frederick said.

The U.S. military has brought charges of assault, cruelty and maltreatment against six soldiers, members of a military police battalion.

It has also reprimanded six officers in connection with abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison after photographs were broadcast around the world showing naked Iraqi prisoners stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex acts.

In e-mails to his wife, Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick questioned some of the abuses he witnessed, such as leaving inmates naked in their cells or making them wear female underwear and handcuffing them to the doors of their cells.

" He questioned it from my understanding and he even tried to come up with some rules knowing that pretty much this was something he did not normally do," said his wife in an interview on NBC's "Today" show.

She complained her husband was being thrust into the limelight while others were protected. "Those who are responsible are standing behind the curtain and watching him take the fall for it. It's almost like being a pawn in a chess game," she said.

'STAGED PICTURES'

Houston lawyer Guy Womack, who is representing reservist Charles Graner in the abuse case, said his client should not be court-martialed and that pictures taken of him abusing Iraqi prisoners were staged.

" You court-martial the right person. You don't court-martial the soldier who is following orders. He was under the command and the direction of intelligence officers, both military and civilian," Womack told NBC's "Today" show.

Graner, who was a corrections officer at a North Carolina prison, was on duty in Iraq for a military police unit.

Womack said the pictures were staged and part of the psychological manipulation of prisoners, adding that his client was told to smile for the camera along with a female soldier who was pointing at a prisoner's genitals.

" These pictures themselves are abhorrent, but you have to put them in context," Womack said.

Reserve Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who oversaw prison facilities in Iraq, said she took responsibility for some of what had happened but pointed out military intelligence was in charge of interrogations -- not the military police under her command.

Her lawyer, Neal Puckett, told CNN, "What's clear in all of this and what's apparently yet to be investigated is that the military intelligence personnel were the folks that had complete, exclusive control over what went on in the interrogation rooms."

Democratic Sen. Jeff Bingaman called for a congressional investigation into the abuse and asked when U.S. military leaders had become aware of what was going on at the prison.

" Clearly we need to know what the secretary of defense knew at what point and what he did about it; the same with the head of the Joint Chiefs; the same with the president. We need to know what was the response of our government to this horrendous set of facts once they got them," said the New Mexico senator.

[Iron Matron]

I actually heard the female brig. general at this prison refer to those that committed this deviancy as "children".

Children who "needed more supervision", Children who were under "stress", Children just taking "orders".

Here in Texas we know Bull S--t when we hear it!

[pghkevin]

Isn't everyone a victim and therefore, not responsible for their actions?

[aft_lizard]

" You court-martial the right person. You don't court-martial the soldier who is following orders. He was under the command and the direction of intelligence officers, both military and civilian," Womack told NBC's "Today" show. >>>

No excuse. They know right from wrong and they know they have the right to refuse unlawful orders and report them.

The people who ordered the soldiers to do this ought to be hung, literally.

[skeeter]

OK, OK I admit it. Its Bush's fault.

[John H K]

Well, it was the same excuse used by most everyone at Nuremberg...."I was just following orders"

[ken5050]

She's under invertigation, and she's back home on the talk-show circuit ducking responsibility. It's a classic command failure, on her part, and she's now passing the buck..blaming her troopers...

BTW..remember Rhonda Cornum?

[antonia]

Womack said the pictures were staged and part of the psychological manipulation of prisoners, adding that his client was told to smile for the camera along with a female soldier who was pointing

Take a look at the faces of those soldiers again, especially the female soldiers. They look less like sadists than delinquents. They look like they're showing off at some wild party trying to impress everybody with how "cool" they are.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

"Did you order the code red?"
"I did the job you sent me to do."
"Did you order the code red?"
"You're goddamn right I did!!"

Hopefully, life will imitate art and the truth will come out. If it hasn't already.

[Dark Wing]

I saw this at the Gym today.

[colorado tanker]

This woman is an idiot. Her husband admitted to her he knew what was going on in the prison was wrong. Now, by going public, she's just erased any spousal privilege that may have protected those conversations and made public admissions. Thanks, honey.

[auggy]

"Here in Texas we know Bull S--t when we hear it!"

Here in Kentucky, we do too!

It's all BULL, if you ask me. I went through worse in Survival training in the Navy.

Between the media and the Dims, this country is slowly being destroyed.

[BossLady]

FYI

[Righty1]

You are basically right but, it still looks like MI is covering their asses with anyone they can find. It just seems strange that reservists would on their own come up with advanced humiliation tactics that fit the situation perfectly. My instints tell me these tactics were purposely imported from Gitmo and Afghanistan. The soldiers in the pictures sure don't give the impression that they see anything wrong with what they are doing.

[Dr. Frank fan]

" He was told to do these things and when he did them he thought that he was doing them in the sense of national security," Frederick said. [...] He was under the command and the direction of intelligence officers, both military and civilian," Womack told NBC's "Today" show."

I hate to say this - and I suppose I'll be jumped on in knee-jerk fashion by some - but I suspect there's a great deal of truth to this.

I don't speak about the more severe charges (sodomization with broom handle, etc) but in general most of this abuse smacks of being intentionally directed by some intelligence guy or another. I'm talking about all the stupid humiliate/fake-homosexual/keep-them-naked stuff. That just doesn't sound like the type of crap a bunch of soldiers (especially the female ones) would spontaneously decide to do on their own as fun 'n games. It sounds more like some kind of hare-brained CIA scheme, based on some classified paper or another that came out of Langley, to Get Muslims To Talk By Using Their Culture Against Them.

Some brilliant mid-level spook had the flash of insight that "Muslims hate homosexuals", "Muslims hate being naked", etc., and drafted up a plan for Here's How To Break Muslims Down So They'll Talk, complete with bullet points like "call them fags", "make them undress with women present", etc.

The thing we have to remember is that many of these prisoners were probably picked up after having been observed i.e. planting IEDs, doing a launch-and-run mortar attack, etc. Wanting to unravel their network - where they got the IEDs, the mortars, who they're in contact with, who seems to be directing attacks, etc - is a perfectly valid intelligence goal. The prison guards doing this crap may have rationalized it that way: "we need to get these guys to talk to roll up this network once and for all". The military intelligence guys, geniuses who read the hypothetical Langley paper, show up and say "here's how you do it! call them fags!" And voila.

I'm not saying this absolves the guards of responsibility for their role. But it does seem plausible that someone in military intelligence came up with this hare-brained scheme and now is content to let the guards be scapegoats.

None of this goes to the question of whether the abuse worked, by the way. In fact, it may have indeed gotten some of the prisoners to talk. But the lesson we should draw from all of this is that it doesn't matter in the long run because whatever short-term intelligence gains were made by playing these stupid games, have almost certainly been erased tenfold by the PR disaster that followed. One could play machiavellian devil's-advocate and say, I suppose, "the methods were situationally justifiable, but they shouldn't have taken the damn photos and released them". However, that there would be moral objections on the part of some whistleblower, and that the photos or (if no photos) at least stories of the abuse would have gotten out, should have been predictable.

My point is that this is a major screw-up and I'm far from confident that the ones who did the screwing-up are namely the six guards who are going to take the fall. I suspect there's some pointyhead intelligence guy who thought all of this was very clever and I don't want to see him get off scot free, if only because stupid ideas like this need to be squashed so that we don't do them or things like them again.

[Frank_Discussion]

I saw part of an interview with her this morning, and I knew she was doing something wrong by speaking out. Thanks for putting your finger on it for me.

[lilylangtree]

Where's the outrage for Arab acts? While the pictures of Iraqi prisoners being allegedly mistreated by U.S. soldiers have been upsetting, keep in mind that these prisoners are 9th century thinking islamics who know only strength and weakness. They wouldn't have any 2nd thoughts to putting a gun or knife in a non-islamic person and pulling the trigger or carving the insides out. Talk to the Israelis who have plenty of experience with these islamic barbaric people. If the West shows any type of perceived weakness, these crazy islamics will mow you down. Until you have their attention through strength, you don't have a chance of succeeding. I can't help but think about the numerous images of islamics mutilating, dragging, burning and destroying bodies of coalition soldiers and workers. Many in the islamic world have no problems displaying their anger toward the coalition through graphic videos and pictures, but the second something allegedly improper is done on our part, there's the utmost outrage. Information is vital to the coalition forces. Politeness is not a factor in this regard.

[glorgau]

Let's see, the officers will get a bad mark on their evaluations and not get promoted, while the enlisted soldiers will be put in Leavenworth for the rest of their natural lives.

[Blzbba]

"U.S. soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners were following orders"


Yep - it's exactly the 'Nuremberg defense'. Your post beat me to it.

[glorgau]

Let's see, the officers will get a bad mark on their evaluations and not get promoted, while the enlisted soldiers will be put in Leavenworth for the rest of their natural lives.

[An.American.Expatriate]

Democratic Sen. Jeff Bingaman called for a congressional investigation into the abuse and asked when U.S. military leaders had become aware of what was going on at the prison.

" Clearly we need to know what the secretary of defense knew at what point and what he did about it; the same with the head of the Joint Chiefs; the same with the president. We need to know what was the response of our government to this horrendous set of facts once they got them," said the New Mexico senator.

BUSH KNEW ! ! !

God I hat the 24/7 Party of Hate Americe (formerly know as the democrats).

[auggy]

"The people who ordered the soldiers to do this ought to be hung, literally."

Now there is some more BS.

This is war. We are not playing some sort of game.

Now, if they had pics of our troops holding Iraqi heads or hands, now that would be outrageous. Not this!

You listen to too much alphabet News.

[Blzbba]

"Where's the outrage for Arab acts?"


I'm tired of this line. The outrage is seen in the 150,000+ coalition troops who are there right now. No one argues that Saddam's and other Arab acts of violence were despicable. Coalition troops are supposed to be bringing law & order to Iraq, not returning the Iraqis to treatment received under Saddam.

We're supposed to be better than that, which is why we're there in the first place.

[jerod]

Exactly! Bush is responsible for every bad thing that ever happens. In fact, I'm sure he called the prison and asked them to do this. If he hadn't given the order, they wouldn't have done it.

The press is in hysterics every week with some story negative towards the President. When the polling comes out and he's still on top, they just look for something else. They're looking for something to stick, but I think that American people are smarter than the Kerry loving, Bush Hating press understands.

Abusing prisoners is a war crime that has to be investigated hourly and talked about hourly on the news. Abusing the corpses of Americans? That's a one night news story.

[WilliamWallace1999]

I haven't heard anyone else state this, so I will. Do you REALLY think spooks and intel officers would have let the troops play around with their disposable cameras during the sactioned torture sessions. This whole things sounds like a lame excuse for a bunch of reservist hooligans that were poorly supervised. Gimme a break. This looks like stupid stunts from hazing at the Delta house, not professionally conducted torture. Besides, all you have to do is shoot the prisoners up with some Versed and they will talk their asses off and not remember a thing they said. Modern interrogation is pharmacologic, not physical. Think I am wrong. For a couple of months last year, we could not get any oral doses for any price. Wholesalers said the government had bought up the entire production run for weeks.

Better living through chemistry.

WW

[Dr. Frank fan]

Now, if they had pics of our troops holding Iraqi heads or hands,

What would be wrong with holding an Iraqi person's hand?

(Oh... you mean just the hand :-) Suddenly now I have the Tom Lehrer classic song "I Hold Your Hand In Mine" stuck in my head, thanks a lot... ;-)

[Blzbba]

"Information is vital to the coalition forces. Politeness is not a factor in this regard."

Sorry - I accidentally hit 'Post' when I meant to continue...


I agree with your assertion above. How about tying suspect Iraqis to a table and injecting them with sodium pentathol (truth serum), rather than the juvenile, hazing-type methods that won't make any Iraqi talk anyways?

[antonia]

We have Kerry running for president who achieved his first political fame and influence  by lying about American troops 'atrocities' in Vietnam; and by some very weird coincident we have our brave young men and women being accused of  'atrocities' here.  mmmmmmmm

gee! and by the way the brits, just by pure coincidence mind you, have also just been exposed by a photo! just by chance! the exact same kind of photo!

Isn't it nice for the anti-war crowd! oh and it's just in time to distract everyone form the real reason that the anti war crowd was anti-war ~ The very real scandal of the oil for food program. ~ toni

[muawiyah]

Hung? In Saudi they chop off heads for this sort of stuff.

If we did that wonder what the Arab news guys would say?

[Dr. Frank fan]

Do you REALLY think spooks and intel officers would have let the troops play around with their disposable cameras during the sactioned torture sessions.

I'll field this: Yes. In fact I suspect that was part of the strategy of "humiliation", to take their photos.

Just as an aside, people are throwing the word "torture" around a bit loosely. I'm not defending these acts (indeed my whole point on this thread is that it was just a stupid, counterproductive thing to do) but most of them do not qualify as "torture" or anything close.

From what I've seen, fully half of the allegations seem to involve being naked or some variation on that theme. "Torture"? Let's use that word carefully, so that it will at least retain some of its meaning.

This looks like stupid stunts from hazing at the Delta house, not professionally conducted torture.

It could be both directed by intelligence guys, and unprofessionally conducted.

Put yourself in one of those female guards' place: "you want me to WHAT, Mr. MI guy?"

Besides, all you have to do is shoot the prisoners up with some Versed and they will talk their asses off and not remember a thing they said. Modern interrogation is pharmacologic, not physical. Think I am wrong. For a couple of months last year, we could not get any oral doses for any price. Wholesalers said the government had bought up the entire production run for weeks.

Then this is what they should have done, instead of this juvenile "humiliation" crap.

Actually, I do hope you're right that this was just a few bad-apple guards, because I'd hate to think that MI is that stupid and reckless.

[lilylangtree]

I keep thinking of the story below.

With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...

Tuesday, May. 4, 2004 10:35 AM EDT
NBC: Worst Abuse at Al Ghraib Done by Iraqi Recruits

Some of the worst abuse in the Al Ghraib prison scandal was reportedly perpetrated by Iraqi guards recruited by the U.S. military and brought into to the jail to help maintain control of the growing population of Iraqi detainees.

And while most of the allegations against U.S. military police involve harassment and intimidation tactics that did not cause physical harm, the Iraqi recruits allegedly raped several detainees.

"The Iraqi guards apparently engaged in rape of female prisoners and perhaps some young boys," reported NBC Pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski on Tuesday.

Miklaszewski told radio host Don Imus that the Iraqi guards had been recruited "in an effort to control the Iraqis inside the prison. The American military invited Iraqis - they trained them up ever so briefly and put them into the prison."

Miklaszewski described another case where "one of these Iraqi guards smuggled in knives and a gun to one of the prisoners and there was a shoot-out in the cell. He was shot to death, an MP was wounded."

Until now, press reports have made no mention of the role played by Iraqi guards in some of worst aspects of the prison abuse scandal. Extensive quotes by the New Yorker Magazine and the Los Angeles Times from a preliminary military report on the abuse scandal failed to note any involvement by Iraqi guards.

Previously, the worst allegation to emerge from the prison abuse scandal was the charge that one of the detainees had been sodomized with a light bulb or a broomstick. But the military report as excerpted by the Los Angeles Times did not specifically identify the perpetrator as American.

[auggy]

"What would be wrong with holding an Iraqi person's hand?"

LOL!

I have a pic, somewhere, there is a arab boy with a bloody hand, showing the people of his village. He was proud of it.

I don't remember where the pic was taken.

Then we have the Iraqi's all upset, because we made a pyramid. The girl in the photo probably use to be a cheerleader.

[Dr. Frank fan]

gee! and by the way the brits, just by pure coincidence mind you, have also just been exposed by a photo! just by chance! the exact same kind of photo!

For the record my current belief (unless/until I hear a better explanation or contradictory information) is that the Brit photos are faked and photo-shopped. The details of military uniform etc have been brought into question, but on a more basic level what raises my suspicion is the fact that they are in black and white.

I've never heard of a digital camera that takes photos only in black and white.

[Feiny]

What do you use Versed for....and what is it?

[monkeywrench]

"We have Kerry running for president who achieved his first political fame and influence by lying about American troops 'atrocities' in Vietnam; and by some very weird coincident we have our brave young men and women being accused of 'atrocities' here. mmmmmmmm gee! and by the way the brits, just by pure coincidence mind you, have also just been exposed by a photo! just by chance! the exact same kind of photo!

Isn't it nice for the anti-war crowd! oh and it's just in time to distract everyone form the real reason that the anti war crowd was anti-war ~ The very real scandal of the oil for food program. ~ toni"

Are you saying, perhaps some of the intel people were fifth columnists that purposely compromised our guys for the purpose of undermining the war effort and giving kerry a boost? Hmmm, works for me.

[genefromjersey]

Oh,yas ! We are victims too !!

[Feiny]

I just googled & found this:

Short acting benzodiazepine. CNS depressant with sedative, muscle relaxant, anticonvulsant, and amnesiac effects. Estimated to be 3-4 times as potent as diazepam. Intensifies activity of gamma-aminobenzoic acid (GABA), a major inhibitory neurotransmitter of the brain. This acts to calm the patient, relaxes skeletal muscles, blocks memory, prevents feeling pain, but enables them to follow commands.

[Delta 21]

This was all just a wardrobe malfunction and I wish you people would just get over it !

[bondjamesbond]

We are trying to show the people of Iraq a better way. Anything that leads them to say that the new regime is just as bad as the old regime works against that goal. Leave aside morality and decency, these acts are just counterproductive.

Not to say immoral and indencent. Heads should roll. Many, many heads.

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT

[hunter112]

I have full confidence that the Rat witch hunt for "those responsible all the way up the chain of command" will completely encompass the period of time between now and Election Day. Bush has handled it well by his mea culpas, and I hope he gets everybody down the line to at least just mumble the words, too. Let the Rats look like the people taking our troops down.

This has the potential to backfire on them as much as the Clinton impeachment backfired on Republicans. The American people want to hear "happy news", and not dwell on the stuff that the "gloomy Gus" Rats will be serving up in large amounts.

[rbmillerjr]

"Do you REALLY think spooks and intel officers would have let the troops play around with their disposable cameras during the sactioned torture sessions. This whole things sounds like a lame excuse for a bunch of reservist hooligans that were poorly supervised"

Yes. The 53 page report states clearly that MI and CIA (OGA) told them what to do. The incidents took place in 2 distinct cells that MI controlled.

[KC Burke]

Last week one of these enlisted GIs charged was claiming that they didn't know it was wrong to do this stuff, that they had never been trained about the Geneva Convention.

Now one of this same small group claims he knew this stuff was wrong but was being ordered to carry it out.

Why then, the photos? If you were compromised to commit acts that were crimes, why have a yuk-it-up party and photo session with your female cadre and nude, humiliated, prisoners of that filthy regime?

And a Brigadier General claiming that "kids" were just being kids?

When I was in the Guard, we took perverse pride in being better trained, more prepared and able to out score Regular units in fitness and preparedness tests. We classed ourselves as more mature and cross-trained due to parallel civilian occupations.

I think the One Star gets court martialed on 150 charges and we start there and work our way from the top down at the same time we go from the bottom up. Put about 30 in Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks for twenty years and commute those who later detail shows extenuating circumstances.

[rbmillerjr]

"Last week one of these enlisted GIs charged was claiming that they didn't know it was wrong to do this stuff, that they had never been trained about the Geneva Convention."

The report states that they were NOT trained in Gen.Conv. or interrogation or for that matter in incarceration methods.

"Now one of this same small group claims he knew this stuff was wrong but was being ordered to carry it out"

The report states they were ordered to carry it out.

"Why then, the photos?"

If you read the report you would know that they were showing the photos to incoming prisoners.

"Put about 30 in Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks for twenty years"

---

comment.

[juzcuz]

Why then, the photos?

Just heard on Fox There are VIDEO's.. I wonder about the media team engaged in this?

[rbmillerjr]

This is going to get much uglier before it goes away. Instead of the current 5-6, there will likely be about 20 that will be punished after all of the reports are completed.

Of course the answer is that this stuff should be done covertly, with total covert staffing. We are looking at a total leadership failure in MI and CIA here...just keep your fingers crossed that this doesnt expand to GITMO.

[ikka]

Either the Brig Gen knew about it and OK'd it because it was military intelligence / psyops; in which case she didn't do a good job of security and whould be busted to private and fired; OR she didn't know what was happening in her OWN PRISONS and should be busted to private and fired.

Which is it?

[verity]

"Between the media and the Dims, this country is slowly being destroyed"

Can include lawyers?

[KC Burke]

So where are the charged MI guys after many months of investigation? We have the relieved General. We have the charged reservists and enlisted. Where are charges against others involved?

Instead, we have to learn of this in specific details from CNN while dealing with it dangles in the wind just waiting to become a scandal?

[rbmillerjr]

"Either the Brig Gen knew about it and OK'd it because it was military intelligence / psyops; in which case she didn't do a good job of security and whould be busted to private and fired; OR she didn't know what was happening in her OWN PRISONS and should be busted to private and fired."

She did not monitor her facilities properly. She also should have known her units role and prevented them from getting mixed up with the MI and CIA people. She is a poor leader but she is just the tip of the iceberg. The officers and agents in MI and CIA should be going down with her.

The initial reprimands better turn into Courts Marshal. There is too much info out there to just scapegoat the 6 MPs. Lucky for them, because sh*t rolls down hill in the military.

They all need to be punished IMHO...then we drive on and complete the mission. The more they try to cover up the more the lib media will go vampire on it.