The normandy Quagmire

Sorry! I wasn't sure about the sarcasm. I am the humor impaired one! Thanks for being a good guy and writing back, so I can apologize for not catching the joke. :)

Feel free to pass it along. All I ask for is the credit for writing it and a link to my web-site.

Edward L. Daley
The Daley Times-Post
http://users.adelphia.net/~thofab/index2.htm

Saddam was already at war with us, as well -- he had been since Gulf War I.

Excellent!

Damn, what a nasty, sour-faced person she is.

When she got out of prison, she became a school teacher (seriously).

When she got out of prison, she became a school teacher (seriously).

Yeah, I could see her doing that.

She definitely had a face made for radio...

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If one wishes to adopt the outlook of these contemporary critics of the Iraq enterprise, than World War II could have been charecterized as an endless quagmire that we could never win. How about the strategic bombing campaign of 1943 in which the deep penetration raids into Germany were called off after the catastrophic heavy bomber casualties of Schweinfurt and Regensberg? No one was whining loudly and publicly about the fact that the self defending bomber formation concept was flawed and that they failed in not having a long-range fighter escort ready at the time. We are so used to the Air Force sustaining almost no casualties in current day operations that we often forget that the 8th Air Force alone had more dead (26,000) than all the entire Marine Corps did in World War II (20,000) there were no loudly public howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win this.

How about the night naval battle off Savo Island, Guadalcanal in August of 1942 in which the United States Navy, defeated by a Japanese navy far better versed in night fighting tactics, sailed away and left the Marines stranded on Guadalcanal? There weren't any howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win.

How about the slaughter off the Eastern Seaboard of the United States in 1942 in which the U-boats of the German Kreigsmarine during Operation Drumbeat sunk 500 allied merchant ships in a six-month period in the greatest naval disaster in United States history? Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win.

How about the Kasserine pass in Tunisia in February of 1943? Rommel's Afrika Corps soundly defeated and routed green American troops, sending them into pell mell retreat. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire these Germans are just too tough to beat.

How about the bloody stalemate inflicted on units of the 1st, 4th, 28th, and 9th infantry divisions by the Germans during the battle of Huertegen Forest as a prelude to the Battle of the Bulge? Or that battle's disastrous opening on the Schnee Eifel in Belgium in which intelligence failures allowed a totally surprised American Army to lose two whole infantry regiments in the opening rounds of the battle? Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we just can't win.

Or how about the defeat inflicted on the allies during Operation Market garden in 1944 when everyone knew the Germans were already beaten? Or the horrendous losses off Okinawa? Or the bloody repulse at the Rapido River in January of 1944, or the bloody stalemate at Anzio or even the entire checkmated Italian campaign? Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win.

We often forget that World War II was no unrelieved string of victories until the final triumph. We often suffered defeat on the battlefield, sometimes catastrophic, but we prevailed because we knew that we had to.

Nothing even remotely resembling any of these historical disastrous of World War II has occurred in Iraq, but these infantile naysayers who try to pose the situation has an absolute defeat are either hopelessly naïve or determined to demoralize our soldiers and willfully undermine this effort. Despite the setbacks that have occurred in Iraq, there is nothing here they cannot be remedied to this country's favor.

find later bump

When you get back from Normandy you might want to read this! :-)

I really enjoyed your post. I am not nearly as well-versed in WWII as you are, but I certainly understand your point.

While talk of casualties in war always ends up sounding cold-blooded and clinical, I think one of the reasons the casualty figures in Iraq since the end of major combat operations looks so high is because there were so very few casualties in the initial operation. Perversely enough, if the US HAD destroyed the Iraqi army (which some said we should have done anyway) and had the thousands of US casualties some had feared, the losses in this phase may have seemed much lighter. Again, I know I will get attacked for crazy spin - I'm GLAD we have lost relatively fewer troops, and EVERY loss is a tragedy none of us who live past the age of that dead soldier can ever understand. But in a way we are victims of our own success in the initial stage. If you said before going in that we would have 800 casualties by this time, I think everyone would agree it was relatively light.

I wonder if you know how many US troops were killed in attacks in Germany and Japan AFTER the surrender. I know it didn't go 100% smoothly because there is that famous 1946 NY Times article saying our German occupation was a failure. Sorry no cite.

To be fair, war opponents, of left AND right, say that the naysaying, etc. is present in this case because this war is not necessary, or not at this cost. (I do think the operation was the least unpleasant and least dangerous of the alternatives - the risks of inaction were worse than the risks of action.) These opponents say that if there is ever another REALLY NECESSARY war like WWII they will act like Americans did then. But I truly wonder if we would. I don't think it's that simple. One difference that may mean there will NEVER be another WWII is that such a grave threat won't be troops invading allies thousands of miles away, or another Pearl Harbor. It will be a nuke going off in Times Square. The timetable will be instantaneous, not months or years. THE THREAT IS DIFFERENT, SO WE HAVE TO RESPOND DIFFERENTLY! IMHO

There is no "either/or" one factor or another that explains everything. But I agree with you to the extent that one big factor may be that many Americans, for lack of a better term, "just don't get it" - the naivete or undermining you speak of. I have been saying the same thing! They may not have the INTENT of weakening this country and emboldening our enemies, but this head in the clouds "I'm a citizen of the world" mentality has, many times, that EFFECT. In one way, it doesn't matter if someone means to shoot you or just carelessly lets the gun discharge - you're still dead.

And yes, we can win. (Even in Viet Nam the Russians and Chinese were supplying the North, I believe. Again, I'm no expert. But I don't think our enemies have such a huge supply line in Iraq.) It only depends on whether we are willing to pay the cost.

Thanks again for posting. I gotta get to work!

Catch you later, folks!

:)

If D-Day Had Been Reported On Today

by William A. Mayer

Tragic French Offensive Stalled on Beaches (Normandy, France - June 6, 1944) - Pandemonium, shock and sheer terror predominate today's events in Europe.

In an as yet unfolding apparent fiasco, Supreme Allied Commander, Gen. Dwight David Eisenhower's troops got a rude awakening this morning at Omaha Beach here in Normandy.

Due to insufficient planning and lack of a workable entrance strategy, soldiers of the 1st and 29th Infantry as well as Army Rangers are now bogged down and sustaining heavy casualties inflicted on them by dug-in insurgent positions located 170 feet above them on cliffs overlooking the beaches which now resemble blood soaked killing fields at the time of this mid-morning filing.

Bodies, parts of bodies, and blood are the order of the day here, the screams of the dying and the stillness of the dead mingle in testament to this terrible event.

Morale can only be described as extremely poor--in some companies all the officers have been either killed or incapacitated, leaving only poorly trained privates to fend for themselves.

Things appear to be going so poorly that Lt. General Omar Bradley has been rumored to be considering breaking off the attack entirely. As we go to press embattled U.S. president Franklin Delano Roosevelt's spokesman has not made himself available for comment at all, fueling fires that something has gone disastrously awry.

The government at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is in a distinct lock-down mode and the Vice President's location is presently and officially undisclosed.

Whether the second in command should have gone into hiding during such a crisis will have to be answered at some future time, but many agree it does not send a good signal.

Miles behind the beaches and adding to the chaos, U.S. Naval gunships have inflicted many friendly fire casualties, as huge high explosive projectiles rain death and destruction on unsuspecting Allied positions. The lack of training of Naval gunners has been called into question numerous times before and today's demonstration seems to underlie those concerns.

At Utah Beach the situation is also grim, elements of the 82nd and 101st Airborne seemed to be in disarray as they missed their primary drop zones behind the area believed to comprise the militant's front lines. Errant paratroopers have been hung up in trees, breaking arms and legs, rendering themselves easy targets for those defending this territory.

On the beach front itself the landing area was missed, catapulting U.S. forces nearly 2,000 yards South of the intended coordinates, thus placing them that much farther away from the German insurgents and unable to direct covering fire or materially add to the operation.

Casualties at day's end are nothing short of horrific; at least 8,000 and possibly as many as 9,000 were wounded in the haphazardly coordinated attack, which seems to have no unifying purpose or intent. Of this number at least 3,000 have been estimated as having been killed, making June 6th by far, the worst single day of the war which has dragged on now--with no exit strategy in sight--as the American economy still struggles to recover from Herbert Hoover's depression and its 25% unemployment.

Military spending has skyrocketed the national debt into uncharted regions, lending another cause for concern. When and if the current hostilities finally end it may take generations for the huge debt to be repaid.

On the planning end of things, experts wonder privately if enough troops were committed to the initial offensive and whether at least another 100,000 troops should have been added to the force structure before such an audacious undertaking. Communication problems also have made their presence felt making that an area for further investigation by the appropriate governmental committees.

On the home front, questions and concern have been voiced. A telephone poll has shown dwindling support for the wheel-chair bound Commander In Chief, which might indicate a further erosion of support for his now three year-old global war.

Of course, the President's precarious health has always been a question. He has just recently recovered from pneumonia and speculation persists whether or not he has sufficient stamina to properly sustain the war effort. This remains a topic of furious discussion among those questioning his competency.

Today's costly and chaotic landing compounds the President's already large credibility problem.

More darkly, this phase of the war, commencing less than six months before the next general election, gives some the impression that Roosevelt may be using this offensive simply as a means to secure re-election in the fall.

Underlining the less than effective Allied attack, German casualties--most of them innocent and hapless conscripts--seem not to be as severe as would be imagined. A German minister who requested anonymity stated categorically that "the aggressors were being driven back into the sea amidst heavy casualties, the German people seek no wider war."

"The news couldn't be better," Adolph Hitler said when he was first informed of the D-Day assault earlier this afternoon.

"As long as they were in Britain we couldn't get at them. Now we have them where we can destroy them."

German minister Goebbels had been told of the Allied airborne landings at 0400 hours.

"Thank God, at last," he said. "This is the final round."

Copied from Boortz this morning

Nah, that could never happen. They'd never publish such trash. If Bush, like FDR, was a liberal Democrat, and we were allied with the Soviets. :)

Thank you. :o)

Thanks for your gracious comment. I just felt I could use my knowledge of how dire WWII was for this country for most of our involvement in it and place that into a perspective vis a vis the Iraqi situation. I am sick of hearing how this is an endless quagmire in which we can never succeed. This could be another self inflicted defeat like Vietnam. (I am a vet of the SE Asia war games by the way)

Many thanks for your service.

I'm no expert, but the differences between Iraq and Viet Nam are many. First, we don't have the Soviets and/or Chinese supplying our enemies.

But one thing is the same. Our enemies CAN'T beat us militarily. It remains to be seen whether we will defeat ourselves.