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To: NZerFromHK
"But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure. I can't figure out how today's relativist, pacifist, and wimpy socialist Euros will come out and support someone in which the Bible says will trust in nothing but only in materials and military prowness?"

Oh that's easy. The Bible [or those particular scriptures] is simply swept aside as a fairy tale or a scenario that has long ago passed us all.

A. There is no God [save Man himself].
B. There is no Heaven or Hell [save tolerant heaven and intolerant hell].
B. The only serious religion is that of politics.

2 Timothy 3;

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them...

...always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. Men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

46 posted on 06/13/2004 3:41:32 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
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To: VaBthang4

Even though many think Americans fit the model the most (I admit many Americans are obsessed with money and sin a lot like murder, abortion, and porns), I think what Paul says seem to be literally describing the current state of Europe and Britain:

lovers of themselves - pacifism, chickening out, appeasement of Islam

money - both the traditional materialism and consumerism we know and the newer form of welfare queen mentality

boastful - "We will regain our place as the premier powerdriver of history and the US domination of world economies is over"

proud - see boastful

abusive - crime rate in major European cities is up substantially from 1996. London now has more crimes per capita than New York City.

disobedient to their parents - France. 2003. Heat waves. More than 10,000 died, mainly retired elderly people.

ungrateful - WWII. Response of Europeans today.

unholy - only 5% of Dutch people could be classified as Christians using Bible standards (and if you include Catholics there - using a more biblical criteria the figure would be 2.5%)

without love - divorce rate

unforgiving - see the "my rights" mentality rampant in Britain

slanderous - British tabloids

without self-control - British teenagers are reported to be even more vulgar in behaviours on average than their American counterparts.

brutal - violent crime

treacherous - German and French corporate scandals.

rash - "now, now, now! I want this now!'

conceited - British Labour and Lib Democrat, and their Dutch counterparts on EU constitutions

lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - Euro 2004. European Championships League. Italian Serie A soccer.

Having a form of godliness but denying its power - socialism tries to "enforce kindness" in the social gospel understanding of Jesus's acts. while it managed to fool many thinking it as compassionate, it breeds far more cold hearts, welfare delinquents, than the free market system.

Need to say more? ;-)


47 posted on 06/13/2004 4:17:34 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: VaBthang4; NZerFromHK; yonif; weegie; blam; counterpunch; ItsonlikeDonkeyKong; Atlantic Friend; ...
But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure.

A civilization's eschatology is fascinating. Civilizations do end. As far as I've seen, most have a religious or mystical explanation for where they arose and where they are going. Often the story ends with their own destruction. But do the stories coincide with the eventualities? One would suspect that in many cases, only hindsight is capable of melding story with reality.

Ours is no exception: we have a variety of Judeo-Christian eschatologies. And of course it's impossible to get Christians to agree on the meanings of Daniel and Revelations, and the other relevant portions of the Bible that discuss the end. Moreover, Jews have their own range of ideas about how it will all end.

I'm somewhere between VaBthang4 and a different point from where NZerFromHK is heading in my point of view. I think the end always comes as a surprise. The cultural epicenter is based on simple components that simply don't allow a civilization to grasp why its downfall is imminent. This downfall can come from an intellectual inability to extend the civilization beyond a self-destructive phase, or its seeds can be either in environmental changes or threats from outside. I would say that Rome experienced all three.

I don't believe we are at the end, especially not in America. Ronald Reagan said that the best years were ahead, and I think he is right! And I think Israel is nowhere near collapse either. That puts our modern Judeo-Christian civilization on unsteady but strong footing.

What are the immediate dangers besides loss of morals and atheism? (I.e. rejecting the tenets of our civilization altogether.) I think those problems have indeed put us at an intellectual crossroads, but they don't necessarily lead to our downfall. Our story is still being told. We're still dynamic, alive, and interested in living. We still want to do what is right, for the most part. Besides, isn't it possible to live in a cultural millieu where the strongly religious and the strongly secular can coexist? I think it can. In fact, I think we have to achieve that goal, and I think it is one that our founding fathers believed was central to the health of our own republic.

If Europe suffers further collapse, it could lead to conflict between western Europeans and the Coalition. This conflict could destroy us, but I think it is not likely to occur. When things get worse, the Franco-German axis will undergo a massive revision as its own peoples realize there has been a mistake. America and Britain will be forgiving at that point. In many ways, I am addressing internal threats of moral lack of clarity and weak policies on immigration. We're finding across the northern hemisphere that if people were created equally, their cultures were not. Under those circumstances we must act to preserve English, French, German, and American "culture." I include the other countries in Europe and free Asia as well.

These issues lead to further economic problems, especially in Europe. But western European countries may have their own Margaret Thatchers just waiting to step forward. I am not too pessimistic about this. I'm an optimist, in fact.

We face major threats from outside, including China and those who would bring a third Caliphate. I think the key to those threats is in western Europe's handling of its own internal crisis. If it can recenter itself economically, Europe won't be tempted to sell out western civilization to the Chinese and continue selling out to the moslems. If it does, then we will all face a deeper crisis. But there, too, I think Americans can and would defend western civilization again.

By all means, keep consulting your religious eschatologies. But I think the right way to conduct our lives is to live the best we can according to the morals we gain from our civilization's underpinnings, and do our best to protect the future for the next generation.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
--- Mark 13:32

50 posted on 06/13/2004 7:32:33 PM PDT by risk
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