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Poland stands by 'poison gas' find Iraq
SpaceWar.com ^ | July 3, 2004 | AFP

Posted on 07/03/2004 5:08:09 PM PDT by FairOpinion

Political and military officials in Poland Saturday reaffirmed that missile warheads found by Polish troops in Iraq contained poison gas, despite denials by the multinational forces in Baghdad. "In each of the missiles found, the presence of a chemical substance was found. It was cyclosarin," a spokesman for the Polish contingent in Iraq, Colonel Robert Strzelecki, told public television.

"They were missiles that were made 15 years ago, which should have been destroyed and were not. They would certainly have very dangerous had they fallen into the hands of terrorists," said deputy defense minister Janusz Zemke.

Washington announced on Thursday that Polish troops had discovered more than a dozen warheads containing mustard or sarin gas in Iraq, a report later confirmed by Polish Defence Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski.

The head of Poland's military intelligence service also said on Friday that "terrorist" groups were seeking to acquire the weapons.

But a statement from the multinational forces in Iraq said on Friday that the 16 122 milimetre warheads had tested negative for chemical agents.

"Those 16 rounds were all empty and tested negative for any type of chemicals," it said.

Washington justified leading the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 by claiming the country was harbouring weapons of mass destruction. However, none has yet been found.

Poland, one of the staunchest supporters of the United States in the Iraq war, patrols a large swathe of the country south of Baghdad, heading a 6,500-strong multinational force including 2,500 Polish troops.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bogdan; bogdanisback; chemicalweapons; gas; iraq; mustard; mustardgas; poland; sarin; weapons; wmd
I personally believe the Poles.

Thanks for your support and courage.

1 posted on 07/03/2004 5:08:10 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion
Curiouser and curiouser-

assertions and denials and assertions and denials...by allies...

2 posted on 07/03/2004 5:10:44 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled

Well, the Polish troops found them and tested them, and it tested positive for sarin and mustard gas.

Then they were handed over to ????, and the new tests showed the shells were negative.

"Shell game"? (I couldn't resist the pun)

How do we know that there aren't some moles among the coalition forces, who could have washed out the shells, or switched them, so we can't claim success.


3 posted on 07/03/2004 5:14:22 PM PDT by FairOpinion (If you are not voting for Bush, you are voting for the terrorists.)
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To: FairOpinion

I wonder what is going on....the Polish find something that is purportedly chemical weapons and we then deny it...

Election year jitters? or just that the Polish were wrong? I wonder....intrigue abounds....


4 posted on 07/03/2004 5:14:49 PM PDT by MikefromOhio (Kerry renames the US The People's Republic of America)
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To: FairOpinion

Let us speculate on disinformation...

your thoughts?


5 posted on 07/03/2004 5:15:27 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled

"They were missiles that were made 15 years ago, which should have been destroyed and were not. They would certainly have very dangerous had they fallen into the hands of terrorists," said deputy defense minister Janusz Zemke.

This is a pretty clear statement. The missiles themselves were supposed to have been destroyed and they were not.


6 posted on 07/03/2004 5:15:29 PM PDT by FairOpinion (If you are not voting for Bush, you are voting for the terrorists.)
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To: FairOpinion
========= Warsaw =========

WHY ARE THESE MEN SMILING?

In Warsaw, General Marek Dukaczewski (R), the head of Polish army intelligence,
discusses artillery shells found by Polish troops in Iraq which definitely contained
the deadly nerve agent cyclosarin. Polish heroes found 17 Grad rockets
and two mortar shells filled with chemicals in late June
and said U.S. experts had carried out tests on the weapons.


========= Chemical Warhead found in Kirkuk =============

Chemical warhead found at an Iraqi air base, marked with a green band,
the symbol for chemical weaponry
. Trace amounts of a nerve agent were found
at two spots along the ~meter-long warhead. These amounts are consistent with
leakage from the chemically armed weapon. A 13-foot missile was found next to it.


========= Halabja =========

Dead children, previously playing in Halabja
Victims of Saddams' WMD in March 1988.


Also found in Iraq:

* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service
that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

* A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials
working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

* Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home,
one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

* New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF),
and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

* Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in
resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

* A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission
that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

* Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles,
a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists
have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

* Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km -
well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed
Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology
related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles,
and other prohibited military equipment.


Still missing based on the UNSCOM report to the UN Security Council in January 1999,
when the UN inspectors left Iraq in 1998, they had been unable to account for:

• up to 360 tons of bulk chemical warfare agents, including 1.5 tons of VX nerve agent;

• up to 3,000 tons of precursor chemicals, including approximately 300 tons which,
in the Iraqi chemical warfare program, were unique to the production of VX;

• growth media procured for biological agent production (enough to produce
over three times the 8,500 litres of anthrax spores Iraq admitted to UN inspectors to having manufactured);

• over 30,000 special munitions for delivery of chemical and biological agents;

• 20 al-Hussein missles with a range of 650 km, in violation
of UN Security Council Resolution 687 (Iraq had told UNSCOM that it filled these warheads with anthrax and botulinum);

• 2,850 tons of mustard gas, 210 tons of tabun, and 795 tons of sarin and cyclosarin;

• development of the Al-Samoud short-range missle (which had the capability to fly beyond the 150 km allowed by UN resolutions)


=========== French missiles FIRST given to Iraq to be USED Against US and Coalition Heroes =========

French missiles found by the Poles, and to protect France, blown up.

Froggies said they did not say "2003". LOL. Decide for yourself.


Iraqi missiles given to, and now located in, Syria:


========= RUSSIAN MISSILES AND DIRTY BOMBS FOUND IN IRAQ =========

Russian-made R-60, NATO AA-8 Aphid, air-to-air missiles were found..
The Russian-made missiles are >6 feet long. Each carries 3.5 pounds of uranium.
wrapped around a high explosive warhead (13.2-pound) making a "dirty bomb".


7 posted on 07/03/2004 5:19:48 PM PDT by Diogenesis (We do only what we are meant to do)
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To: Diogenesis

Thanks for those pictures and the information.

How can people still deny the existence of the WMD in Iraq?!


8 posted on 07/03/2004 5:22:25 PM PDT by FairOpinion (If you are not voting for Bush, you are voting for the terrorists.)
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To: Diogenesis

"RUSSIAN MISSILES AND DIRTY BOMBS FOUND IN IRAQ




Russian-made R-60, NATO AA-8 Aphid, air-to-air missiles were found..
The Russian-made missiles are >6 feet long. Each carries 3.5 pounds of uranium.
wrapped around a high explosive warhead (13.2-pound) making a "dirty bomb".


---

I read that the Russians had these and that some were missing. I didn't know these were found in Iraq.

What more evidence do we need?!


9 posted on 07/03/2004 5:23:58 PM PDT by FairOpinion (If you are not voting for Bush, you are voting for the terrorists.)
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To: Diogenesis

Looks like these are different from the ones I read about.

Transdniester: Missing Missiles Raising Fears Of 'Dirty Bombs' For Sale
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2003/12/sec-031210-rferl-171503.htm

International media reported this week that dozens of small missiles believed to have been modified to carry radioactive material have apparently gone missing in Moldova's breakaway Transdniester region. Reports that Transdniester, long-known as a hub for illegal weapons, could have sold what are known as "dirty bombs" to international terrorist groups are prompting officials and analysts to renew calls for a durable settlement in the region.

Prague, 10 December 2003 (RFE/RL) -- It is a thin, 1-meter-long rocket whose intended function was to spread chemicals on storm clouds to prevent hail over the Soviet Union.

Instead, the only thing the Alazan rocket spread successfully was fear. The missile, initially part of a failed Soviet experiment in weather control, was later used for military purposes in the early 1990s in various conflicts in the former Soviet region.

Now, there are suspicions that the Alazan rockets could have been outfitted with warheads containing radioactive waste and turned into what are known as "dirty bombs." Western media outlets reported this week that dozens of such rockets appear to have gone missing in Moldova's breakaway region of Transdniester.

Media reports quote documents apparently acquired by Oazu Nantoi, a former Moldovan government official and political analyst. Nantoi says he is in possession of Transdniestrian military documents, dated 1994, that speak about the existence of 38 radioactive warheads for Alazan missiles, out of which 24 had allegedly been attached to rockets.


10 posted on 07/03/2004 5:29:03 PM PDT by FairOpinion (If you are not voting for Bush, you are voting for the terrorists.)
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To: Diogenesis

bumpbumpbump


11 posted on 07/03/2004 5:39:22 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: Diogenesis
Huge bump. Ahh, the selective memory of the media.

Nowadays 4th estate = 5th column

(hmmm, not a bad tagline..)

12 posted on 07/03/2004 6:40:30 PM PDT by HassanBenSobar (Islam is the opiate of the people)
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To: FairOpinion

BUMP TO THE TOP!!!!

BUMP TO THE TOP!!!!


13 posted on 07/03/2004 6:41:26 PM PDT by Defender2 (Defending Our Bill of Rights, Our Constitution, Our Country and Our Freedom!!!!)
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To: FL_engineer

Ping


14 posted on 07/03/2004 6:44:07 PM PDT by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: FairOpinion

I believe the Poles and I'm glad to have this confirmation from them.

The same damn think happened with the Czech report on Mohammed Atta's visit to Prague. They continue to confirm it and George Tenet continues to deny it.

What the devil does "multinational forces" mean? Who, exactly? What nations, what scientists, and what commander? I want to see some names here, some spokesmen who let themselves be identified.


15 posted on 07/03/2004 6:45:51 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: FairOpinion

This pretty much seals the deal for me: It's now clear that (at some level) we have in place a policy of denying WMD finds. Presumably to reduce temptation of insurgents to seek out/use them (somehow). This will be my working hypothesis until further info, because nothing else makes sense.


16 posted on 07/03/2004 6:48:00 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Dr. Frank fan

"It's now clear that (at some level) we have in place a policy of denying WMD finds."

That is what appears to be the case, but I can't fathom why.

This is a huge cost to President Bush -- he has given tremendous ammunition to the Democrats, and (God Forbid!) may lose the election on account of this. And for what gain? The terrorists know that there are WMD and either have them already or are searching for them.

I personally think, that there are way too many anti-Bush, anti-US people at various levels, including high military (just think of Gen. Wes Clark, and many in the State Department, who have actively been trying to foil anything Bush is trying to do), who could well destroy evidence, to keep Bush from claiming this important victory.

Also think -- how did those ABu Ghraib pictures get out?

While it may sound like tinfoil time, but I think from the scant information we have, it looks more plausible, that things are done at various levels to make Bush look bad, and keep him from being reelected, and never mind, they also cause serious harm to the US.


17 posted on 07/03/2004 7:06:53 PM PDT by FairOpinion (If you are not voting for Bush, you are voting for the terrorists.)
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To: FairOpinion

A hand-out photograph made available by the Polish Army on July 2, 2004 shows artillery shells found by Polish troops in Iraq on June 16. Artillery shells found by Polish troops in Iraq definitely contained the deadly nerve agent cyclosarin, the Polish army said on Friday. Poland said its soldiers found 17 Grad rockets and two mortar shells in late June and said U.S. experts had carried out tests on the weapons. REUTERS/Polish Army/HO

Poland Minister of Defense Jerzy Szmajdzinski (L) and General Marek Dukaczewski (C), the head of Polish army intelligence, smile during a news conference in Warsaw, July 2, 2004. Artillery shells found by Polish troops in definitely contained the deadly nerve agent cyclosarin, the Polish army said on Friday. Poland said its soldiers found 17 Grad rockets and two mortar shells filled with chemicals in late June and said U.S. experts had carried out tests on the weapons. REUTERS/FORUM /Adam Chelstowski

18 posted on 07/03/2004 7:09:28 PM PDT by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: TexKat

I believe Rummy verified these in a report AND I'm sure he wouldn't have done it using preliminary test results.


19 posted on 07/03/2004 7:22:12 PM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Sacajaweau

Other reports have said that all shells were empty. A small trace of sarin was found on two. As far as the Polish insistence that they were all sarin shells, one has to realize that all coalition countries are hunting for justification for their participation in the Iraq war.


20 posted on 07/03/2004 7:43:08 PM PDT by meenie
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To: Cicero; FairOpinion
What the devil does "multinational forces" mean? Who, exactly? What nations, what scientists, and what commander? I want to see some names here, some spokesmen who let themselves be identified.

Chemicals Not Found in Iraq Warheads - Washington Post

The Coalition Press Information Center in Baghdad said in a statement yesterday that the 122-milimeter rocket rounds, which initially showed traces of sarin, "were all empty and tested negative for any type of chemicals." The statement came just hours after two senior Polish defense officials told reporters in Warsaw, based on preliminary reports, that the rocket rounds contained deadly sarin and that actions by the Polish unit in Iraq kept them from being purchased by militants fighting coalition forces.

Yesterday's coalition release also said that two other 122-milimeter rounds, found by the Poles on June 16 with help from an Iraqi informer, tested positive for small quantities of sarin but were "so deteriorated" that they would have had "limited to no impact if used by insurgents against coalition forces."

21 posted on 07/03/2004 8:34:24 PM PDT by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: TexKat
Yesterday's coalition release also said that two other 122-milimeter rounds, found by the Poles on June 16 with help from an Iraqi informer, tested positive for small quantities of sarin but were "so deteriorated" that they would have had "limited to no impact if used by insurgents against coalition forces."

Interesting. Even when they do admit they found WMD components, they amplify the fact that these components would have 'limited to no impact'. Perhaps someone can explain what 'limited impact' of a WMD actually means ? Does it mean that only 1/4 of the lethal potential remains ? Does it mean no one would die, but they would just get very ill ? Looks like the 'Coalition Press Information Center in Baghdad' might be more worried about next years tourist season then they are worried about the 'limited impact' of WMD munitons scattered across the desert.

On the conspiracy side of things, best bet is that Bush is letting this charade go on in the media to help stabalize Iraq. In other words, Moore and the Fringe Left, are irrelavent.

22 posted on 07/03/2004 9:37:00 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: FairOpinion

An air to air missile is no more a dirty bomb than a depleted uranium round.


23 posted on 07/04/2004 1:12:58 AM PDT by Dave Elias
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To: justa-hairyape

A weapon is only a weapon if you can use it as such. Those shells look pretty dodgy to me.


24 posted on 07/04/2004 1:17:32 AM PDT by Dave Elias
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To: Dr. Frank fan; FairOpinion
I think you're correct that we have a policy of denying WMD finds. It looks like we are taking the moral high road and denying the existence of chemical weapons in Iraq, so that insurgents will not go looking for them and then use them against our troops. There was an article in the WSJ a few weeks ago that said we have found "large quantities of precursor chemicals for WMD." This has not been acknowledged or publicized (yet) by the Bush Admin, presumably because it's not too technically difficult to process the precursor chemicals into chemical weapons.

It looks like the problem is that some of Iraq's chemical weapons were scattered around the country in relatively small weapons caches and we don't have a good knowledge of where they are. Hence we haven't been able to find and secure all the WMD. Publicity about WMD will surely motivate the insurgents to go looking for the available chemical weapons on the black market. I'll bet they want to kill a number of our soldiers with nerve gas to shock and horrify America so we'll pull our troops out of Iraq. That's been their primitive strategy here for months: barbaric terror and horror. The whole situation is really tough for the White House. I don't know what the answer is. If you acknowledge WMD discoveries you create one problem and if you don't you create another problem. The White House never expected that barbaric insurgents would want to use chemical weapons against our troops after we liberated Iraq. Powell was talking the other day about how "the resistance from insurgents in Iraq is a serious problem for us." He may mean that it's a problem in more ways than the cost in casualties. He may also have been thinking about all the poltical costs for Bush and America.

25 posted on 07/04/2004 1:53:23 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Suddenly the raven on Scalia's desk stirred and spoke. Quoth the raven..."NeverGore")
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To: meenie

Their justification has been sitting in the dock in Baghdad last week.


26 posted on 07/04/2004 2:02:17 AM PDT by driftless ( For life-long happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: carl in alaska

Could those "old" shells have been used in Gulf War #1 ??

Have they ever found out what made so many GW1 vets sick ??

....just wondering....


27 posted on 07/04/2004 2:10:07 AM PDT by musicman
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To: Dr. Frank fan; FairOpinion

One more idea just occurred to me. We may be concerned about a major WMD attack on the Iraqi government buildings by AQ, smilar to the one they attempted against the Jordanian government. The last thing we need now is for AQ to wipe out the new Iraqi government. It looks like the covert war is really heating up in the Middle East, and I've noticed that Bush is getting more support lately about Iraq from world leaders. There may be some fresh intelligence reports about Iraqi WMD discoveries that are making the rounds within NATO. Martin of Canada made a statement that "Al Qaeda now has access to all the WMD that were in Iraq," and even Schroeder of Germany made some supportive comments about the dangers of AQ and the need for everyone to help stabilize Iraq (or something like that.) Then Putin revealed that Russian intelligence gave Bush a specific warning about planned attacks on the US by Iraqi Intelligence agents. I wouldn't duct tape the windows just yet, but the covert war is heating up.


28 posted on 07/04/2004 2:14:12 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Suddenly the raven on Scalia's desk stirred and spoke. Quoth the raven..."NeverGore")
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To: musicman

I think the cause of Gulf War syndrome is still largely unkown. But a Rand Corporation study found that heavy use of insecticides by our troops is likely to be part of the cause of this syndrome. Evidently the DEET ingredient in insecticides is somewhat toxic to nerve cells and if you use too much for too long it can damage your nervous system. There's also a lot of theories that we blew up chemical weapons along with ordinary artillery shells after we liberated Kuwait, and nerve agents in the atmosphere poisoned our soldiers.


29 posted on 07/04/2004 2:18:50 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Suddenly the raven on Scalia's desk stirred and spoke. Quoth the raven..."NeverGore")
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To: Dave Elias
A weapon is only a weapon if you can use it as such. Those shells look pretty dodgy to me.

And fertilizer certainly could not take down a building.

The facts are that WMD munitions have been buried in the Iraqi desert. Their current state of lethality is going to vary from munition to munition.

30 posted on 07/04/2004 4:19:21 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: carl in alaska
Martin of Canada made a statement that "Al Qaeda now has access to all the WMD that were in Iraq,"

What stopped them from having access when Saddam was still in power ? We are talking about barbaric terrorists that seem to enjoy beheading defenseless captives. We still dont know who sent the Anthrax letters. What was meant by 'We have this anthrax. You cannot stop us.'

31 posted on 07/04/2004 4:33:50 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: Dave Elias

Just put one along with a roadside bomb or a car bomb and let me know what happens when it blows!!


32 posted on 07/04/2004 5:56:08 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Sacajaweau
I believe we will issue a scheduled report in the fall about WMD in Iraq. They are under the scrutiny of the new guy. Anything we find, old or new is important.

Blix said two important things while he was blindly searching in Iraq:

1. We aren't going to find them unless they take us to them.

2. Saddam wants to produce these in double quick time, on command.

Don't forget the centrifuge documents incident-hidden under the rose bush.

33 posted on 07/04/2004 6:04:24 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: justa-hairyape
Having access and using them is two different things. Just look at the anthrax and the apparent precautions.

Imagine Saddam telling a bunch of dudes to take these things and go to it and leave out the part about you'll be killing all your relatives and friends and you'll probably die, too.

34 posted on 07/04/2004 6:12:32 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Principled

What the h@@@ is going on...

The Polish troops swear they were Chem Weapons...

This is just strange...


35 posted on 07/04/2004 7:55:32 AM PDT by Cheetah1
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To: MikeinIraq

We are not wrong. There was chemical in it.


36 posted on 07/04/2004 9:30:04 AM PDT by anonymoussierra (Grom - thunder and lightning - long live Poland -greetings to Ameryka our ally)
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To: FairOpinion

I think why cretins in media lie. Becouse this is a total against them allygations that chemical and biological weapon was not in Irak. For information I have straight from Irak it was fund.


37 posted on 07/04/2004 9:33:23 AM PDT by anonymoussierra (Grom - thunder and lightning - long live Poland -greetings to Ameryka our ally)
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To: FairOpinion

Timing is everything!

There have been several other reports before. Even General Kimmit has made remarks in the past reference to some finds.

After validation and with several finds, putting it all together, they may be waiting so they can make an "Airtight" case with no wiggle room for those who will quickly want to rationalize everything away.

Look at the early hand over. The current administration and the authoriies on ground in Iraq have demonstrated an ability to time events very well.

I believe the silence will be broken with a $hitstorm for the "Oh yea- show me the WMD" folks.

Red6


38 posted on 07/04/2004 9:51:53 AM PDT by Red6
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To: anonymoussierra

We like you guys too.

There are many who are hoping that we move all our stuff to Poland. It's a pretty country, the people are friendly, there is no anti-American sentiment to be felt. In fact-don't take this wrong it's a compliment in a strange way- you almost sense a love for the US. We work well together with the Polish troops as evidenced several times in the last few months. You don't have crazy environmental laws like in Germany where if you run over a tree (In a training area) they charge the US government $30,000. Cheaper operating costs and large training areas make Poland the perfect spot for US forces. Only we can't quite do it without the approval of other countries. The Convetional Forces of Europe Treaty does not allow the US to perminently base forces east of the Oder river. Believe me when I say that "most" of those who are in the position to make decisions reference forces and their locations "Want" to move. But there are some issues.

I have seen your Grom do work with our guys on numerous occasions. Good work!

Red6


39 posted on 07/04/2004 10:17:19 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Dave Elias

Tell that to the French Bureu of Demining they are still finding ordnance left over from WW1 that are still deadly including chemical weapons. The shells in the photo may look bad on the outside but you wanna bet inside the fuze looks like it just came off the factory assembly line


40 posted on 07/04/2004 1:35:04 PM PDT by Nebr FAL owner (.308 REACH OUT & THUMP SOMEONE .50BMG REACH OUT & CRUSH SOMEONE!)
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To: Nebr FAL owner

Well considering the Bush Administration AND the especially the UK are DESPERATELY seeking sold proof of WMDS in Iraq I find it incredibly hard to believe they wouldn't run with this information if it were true. Remember the UK joined us in this war solely on the threat of WMDs so if this was the smoking gun you can bet they'd jump all over it.

Either Poland is lying or for some stupid reason our government and media is lying, even though this kind of evidence would be EXACTLY what the Administration needs.


41 posted on 07/14/2004 5:32:09 PM PDT by Rickmanx
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