Posted on 07/04/2004 7:39:07 AM PDT by nwrep
Well, there is hope even in the darkest corners of the universe. This is good to hear, there is one other young Sky Walker-
D'oh! You're right!
Exactly,
I always question when someone says "Conversion" from Christianity? is there such a thing? I can imagine you might decide to become an "Atheist" which is a lack of moral strength IMO..
But since you can be a Jew or Gentile Christian, I do not see what Kerry's brother converted too? if he became an Atheist then I guess he had a immoral conversion, if he is part of the Jewish faith he can still be a Christian as the Apostles and the early christians (All Jews) were...up until Antioch...
Well, its pretty straightforward. He converted to Judaism. A Reform conversion, from the sounds of it, although that isn't clearly stated in the article.
Just because this concept doesn't fit into your worldview doesn't mean that people don't do it all the time.
if he is part of the Jewish faith he can still be a Christian
He may never have been a believing Christian. Or, if he once were, he rejected those beliefs somewhere along the way. At any rate, when he converted to Judaism, he no longer held specifically Christian beliefs such as the trinity, the incarnation, etc.
Then he converted as a Gentile to Judiasm
A "gentile" is a non-Jew. So yes, it is self-evident that he converted as a gentile to Judaism.
when he converted to Judaism, he no longer held specifically Christian beliefs such as the trinity, the incarnation, etc.
One other thing Malakhi concerning this statement, if the early church in Israel (Before the Gospels were preached to the Gentiles) had Christian beliefs were still Jews then I am sure in today's world the same concept applies...
If he were halakhically Jewish (i.e., born of a Jewish mother), then he would remain a Jew by birth even if he converted to Christianity.
In the case of Cameron and John Kerry, their Jewish ancestry is not through their mother. So they are not, according to Jewish law, Jews by birth. Which is why Cameron had to convert.
A gentile who becomes a Christian is still a gentile. He does not become Jewish by virtue of his baptism. The only "Jewish" Christians are those who were born Jews and who have converted to Christianity.
I know this is proably way to in-depth to ever find a answer but here is some food for thought:
If all the Apostles were Jewish (Exception) Luke and there Jewish wives had children then by lineage they would be Jewish even if they believed Jesus Christ was Messiah this being the case how would you identify there geneaology?
Jew Gentile? no way to tell...I would find it interesting if someone had an answer to this puzzling question....
So are you saying if Kerry had a Jewish Mother and Catholic father he does not have to convert?
If you have a conversion that is halachically correct (beit din with shomer shabbos rabbis, mikvah, and for men circ) you are Jewish according to Jewish law.
The father's religion does not matter. If mom is Jewish, so are her children.
Since their Jewishness ceased to matter to them, they would have lost any such identity over the course of succeeding generations. Given the amount of intermarriage, the likelihood of a great number of Christians who are unknowingly of Jewish matrilineal descent is exceedingly small. There may be a great number who have Jewish ancestry somewhere in their family tree, but they would not be Jewish according to Jewish law.
That is absolutely correct. He would be a Jew by birth.
According to the article, the Kerrys' paternal grandparents were Jews who converted to Catholicism. Kerry's father's mother was Jewish, so Kerry's father, according to Jewish law, was a Jew by birth. Since John and Cameron's mother was not Jewish, however, they are not halakhically Jewish.
Well blow me down and call me a straw house - this is the first time I've ever heard anything about Mr. Kerry's family. I wonder what else is out there?
You said if the mother is Jewish and has children then her offspring is Jewish no matter if they become Atheists or Buddhists they are JEWISH those are your words.
In reading the Bible and the early church which at one point only had 2 types of People Jews and Gentiles. When Jesus was on earth as a Jew his family were Jews the Apostles were married and were Jews the Gospels were spread to many Jews through large segments in the world. Antioch was a very large Jewish city that believed in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, now I realize things changed dramatically when the early Jewish Church Changed to more of a Pagan Gentile matter, but that does not negate the fact that the offsring of many many believers were of Jewish blood so there is no way on GOD's creation that you have one inclination how to determine who truly is Jewish or Gentile that means Conversion is not accurate, unless you consider yourself an Atheist...
And going by your theroy then I guess we are all related! One big happy family! Group hug! Group hug!
flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop flipflop
That is true, but how many generations ago was that? 80? In each line of descent, for every "Jew-by-birth" man who married a non-Jewish woman, the line would become "gentile", as none of their descendants would be Jewish. Over 80 generations, the likelihood of an unbroken matrilineal string of halakhic Jews, while not mathematically impossible, is exceedingly unlikely. Because "Jewishness" ceased to matter to them, and they freely intermarried.
that means Conversion is not accurate
How so? If someone were (unknowingly) Jewish, and "converted" to Judaism, the end result would be the same -- that person would now be Jewish. The fact that their conversion was unnecessary doesn't really matter.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.