Hey, Rick: here is a quote from Reinnhold Niebuhr:
Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Reinhold Niebuhr
I think that sums up exactly the situation in Iraq. I have faith in God and America.
Why do you believe that Iraq must become true and make complete sense in the immediate context of history?
----
I'm really glad Chookter said this. It's what I mean by "un-American"--I will argue again and again, and gladly, that to base our politics in the faith that everything will somehow just work out well in the end because of WHO WE ARE instead of WHAT WE DO. It is an absolute abrogation of the republic (small-r) principle of self-government.
Who's with Chookter?
RP
George W Bush's military record vs John Kerry's military record
Aerospaceweb.org was started in 2000 to provide information regarding a wide range
of aerospace-related fields, including aircraft design, spacecraft design, aerodynamics,
and aerospace history.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml
...Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush
enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were
routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970.
Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe
or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty.
Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush
inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior,
MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training
and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran
COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time,
told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants....
...
The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment.
Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that
the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots where serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training.
Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment,
but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than
two years of training required of him.
Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot,
but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft whose pilots regularly risked their lives.
Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete,
but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position
was being phased out...
...
While it is not our goal to compare and contrast the records of the candidates on this subject,
the fact that the questioner cites John Kerry's military service makes us feel it necessary to comment.
It is interesting to note that there are just as many, if not more,
irregularities in Kerry's military record as there are in Bush's.
Kerry can certainly be praised for some of the actions he performed while in the line of duty,
but his record does contain some troubling portions as well.
Not the least of these is his involvement in the controversial group
Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) while he was still an active-duty member of the US Navy.
Kerry's testimony before Congress as VVAW spokesman in 1971,
during which he accused soldiers serving in Vietnam of being war criminals,
was found to be based on largely falsifed information as documented by Wikipedia.
The Boston Globe has also reported on troubling accusations regarding the circumstances
surrounding Kerry's medals, particularly his first two purple hearts awarded for
minor injuries that may even have been self-inflicted.
John Kerry's record
http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm
DD 214 shows 17 Feb 72 terminal date of Reserve Obligation for John Kerry
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf
Kerry's anti war activities were doing this period!
What is Senator John Kerry's relationship to VVAW?
http://www.vvaw.org/faq/#4
Since Vietnam Veterans Against the War's inception in 1967, tens of thousands of vets, GIs and supporters have participated in and supported the actions of VVAW. One of those members in the early 1970s was John Kerry. Kerry was appointed to the VVAW Executive Committee to assist in preparing Dewey Canyon III, VVAW's limited incursion into the land of Congress in 1971 (Nicosia, 98-99). Kerry made his greatest contribution to the anti-war movement and to VVAW in his speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations on April 23, 1971 (Brinkley, 371-373: Hunt, 109-110; Nicosia, 136-138; Wells, 495).
Content of the speech is found at:
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html.
By 1972, John Kerry had moved on from VVAW (Brinkley, 406: Hunt, 127-128; Nicosia, 211).
John Kerry's service in Vietnam lasted 4 months and 12 days, beginning in November 1968 when he reported to Cam Rahn Bay for a month of training. His abbreviated combat tour ended shortly after he requested a transfer out of Vietnam on March 17, 1969, citing Navy instruction 1300.39 permitting personnel with three Purple Hearts to request reassignment. So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.
The instruction, titled 1300.39, says that a Naval officer who requires hospitalization on two separate occasions, or who receives three wounds "regardless of the nature of the wounds," can ask a superior officer to request a reassignment. The instruction makes clear the reassignment is not automatic.
It says that the reassignment "will be determined after consideration of his physical classification for duty and on an individual basis." Because Kerry's wounds were not considered serious, his reassignment appears to have been made on an individual basis. Moreover, the instruction makes clear that Kerry could have asked that any reassignment be waived.
The bottom line is that Kerry could have remained but he chose to seek an early transfer. He met with Horne, who agreed to forward the request, which Horne said probably ensured final approval. The Navy could not say how many other officers or sailors got a similar early release from combat, but it was unusual for anyone to have three Purple Hearts.
http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam
"So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor
ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty,
other than those who were seriously wounded or killed."
John Kerry and War Crimes in Vietnam
(He was in command of a Swift Boat
and ordered his men to do these things.
Listen to this 1971 audio clip)
http://www.streamload.com/jmstein77/Kerry2.mp3
DD 214 shows 17 Feb 72 terminal date of Reserve Obligation for John Kerry
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf
Kerry's anti war activities were doing this period!
2. y'all is nuts if you STILL BELIEVE Iraq managed to ship tons of RADIOACTIVE ORE halfway across the Eastern hemisphere without anyone noticing. I certainly have my criticisms of Joe Wilson, but he does at least a adequate job of debunking that nonsense here:
Seriously, if you don't fix this, you have demonstrated you are not honest enough to debate and this whole thread is a silly waste of time. You have yet to address all the facts in the VA budget question so far, too, so the hope that this would be an honest liberal is fast dying.
But WHO WE ARE is exceptional in that this nation and its actions is entirely a product of the republic principle of self-governement.
So, your argument is: if a republic entirely based on the principle of self-government acts on those principles, it is abrogating those principles?
How can that be?