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Q and A- F-102, Vietnam & George W. Bush
Aerospaceweb.org ^ | 18 July 2004 | Greg Alexander , Jeff Scott

Posted on 08/05/2004 8:56:04 PM PDT by happydogdesign

Edited on 05/30/2006 11:18:45 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

"It really bothers me that a coward like George W. Bush spent the Vietnam War training to fly old and useless planes in Texas while John Kerry was heroically risking his life in combat and got three purple hearts!"

We normally shy away from the world of politics, but we get variations of this kind of question regularly and feel it necessary to clarify some information. We'll do our best to avoid bringing our own political biases into this article. At the very least, we'll attempt to remain as neutral and objective as Michael Moore does in his ironically dubbed "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11.


(Excerpt) Read more at aerospaceweb.org ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; ang; awol; bush; georgewbush; militaryrecord; pilot; tang; vietnam
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An excellent and thorough description of the mission of the Texas Air National Guard during the Viet Nam War, and a fair and informative explanation of the President's service record. Please go to the original site, Aerospaceweb.org for excellent photographs and further information
1 posted on 08/05/2004 8:56:04 PM PDT by happydogdesign
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To: happydogdesign

Does anybody know how many members FR has?


2 posted on 08/05/2004 8:58:00 PM PDT by Betaille ("Show them no mercy, for none shall be shown to you")
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To: Betaille
Does anybody know how many members FR has?

Besides you? Just me. Boy is it hard to type all this stuff in and keep it straight....

3 posted on 08/05/2004 9:01:56 PM PDT by isthisnickcool (Strategery - "W" plays poker with one hand and chess with the other.)
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To: happydogdesign

I've been posting this for awhile

George W Bush's military record vs John Kerry's military record

Aerospaceweb.org was started in 2000 to provide information regarding a wide range
of aerospace-related fields, including aircraft design, spacecraft design, aerodynamics,
and aerospace history.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

...Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush
enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were
routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970.
Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe
or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty.
Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush
inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior,
MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training
and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran
COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time,
told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants....
...
The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment.
Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that
the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots where serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training.
Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment,
but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than
two years of training required of him.
Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot,
but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft whose pilots regularly risked their lives.
Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete,
but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position
was being phased out...
...
While it is not our goal to compare and contrast the records of the candidates on this subject,
the fact that the questioner cites John Kerry's military service makes us feel it necessary to comment.
It is interesting to note that there are just as many, if not more,
irregularities in Kerry's military record as there are in Bush's.
Kerry can certainly be praised for some of the actions he performed while in the line of duty,
but his record does contain some troubling portions as well.
Not the least of these is his involvement in the controversial group
Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) while he was still an active-duty member of the US Navy.
Kerry's testimony before Congress as VVAW spokesman in 1971,
during which he accused soldiers serving in Vietnam of being war criminals,
was found to be based on largely falsifed information as documented by Wikipedia.
The Boston Globe has also reported on troubling accusations regarding the circumstances
surrounding Kerry's medals, particularly his first two purple hearts awarded for
minor injuries that may even have been self-inflicted.

John Kerry's record

http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm

DD 214 shows 17 Feb 72 terminal date of Reserve Obligation for John Kerry

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf

Kerry's anti war activities were doing this period!

What is Senator John Kerry's relationship to VVAW?

http://www.vvaw.org/faq/#4

Since Vietnam Veterans Against the War's inception in 1967, tens of thousands of vets, GIs and supporters have participated in and supported the actions of VVAW. One of those members in the early 1970s was John Kerry. Kerry was appointed to the VVAW Executive Committee to assist in preparing Dewey Canyon III, VVAW's limited incursion into the land of Congress in 1971 (Nicosia, 98-99). Kerry made his greatest contribution to the anti-war movement and to VVAW in his speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations on April 23, 1971 (Brinkley, 371-373: Hunt, 109-110; Nicosia, 136-138; Wells, 495).

Content of the speech is found at:

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html.

By 1972, John Kerry had moved on from VVAW (Brinkley, 406: Hunt, 127-128; Nicosia, 211).

John Kerry's service in Vietnam lasted 4 months and 12 days, beginning in November 1968 when he reported to Cam Rahn Bay for a month of training. His abbreviated combat tour ended shortly after he requested a transfer out of Vietnam on March 17, 1969, citing Navy instruction 1300.39 permitting personnel with three Purple Hearts to request reassignment. So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.



The instruction, titled 1300.39, says that a Naval officer who requires hospitalization on two separate occasions, or who receives three wounds "regardless of the nature of the wounds," can ask a superior officer to request a reassignment. The instruction makes clear the reassignment is not automatic.

It says that the reassignment "will be determined after consideration of his physical classification for duty and on an individual basis." Because Kerry's wounds were not considered serious, his reassignment appears to have been made on an individual basis. Moreover, the instruction makes clear that Kerry could have asked that any reassignment be waived.

The bottom line is that Kerry could have remained but he chose to seek an early transfer. He met with Horne, who agreed to forward the request, which Horne said probably ensured final approval. The Navy could not say how many other officers or sailors got a similar early release from combat, but it was unusual for anyone to have three Purple Hearts.

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam

"So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor
ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty,
other than those who were seriously wounded or killed."


4 posted on 08/05/2004 9:05:09 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: Betaille

?????????


5 posted on 08/05/2004 9:05:10 PM PDT by pfflier
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To: Betaille

eleventy-thousand


6 posted on 08/05/2004 9:06:31 PM PDT by Brett66 (http://www.scifiartposters.com)
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To: Betaille; Admin Moderator; Jim Robinson
Does anybody know how many members FR has?

Ask the Admin Moderator or Jim Robinson.

7 posted on 08/05/2004 9:07:00 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: happydogdesign

great stuff. ping for later


8 posted on 08/05/2004 9:07:32 PM PDT by Amalie (FREEDOM had NEVER been another word for nothing left to lose...)
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To: happydogdesign
Excellent Article,

Thanks for posting it.

One thing that must be considered is that it's John Kerry who is running on his service in the Military, all 4 1/2 Months of it

9 posted on 08/05/2004 9:08:07 PM PDT by MJY1288 (John Kerry Would Still Be Negotiating With the Taliban if he Was President)
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To: Betaille

according to the home page over 100,000 registered users, probably even more lurkers, could be over 200,000 reading this

http://www.freerepublic.com/home.htm

(scroll down til you see this)

Who reads FR?
Over 100,000 people have registered for posting privileges on Free Republic during the last six years and our forum is read daily by tens of thousands of concerned citizens and patriots from all around the country and the world. Oh, we're big stuff all right

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&p=Det_W_t_40_L1&url=freerepublic.com

(Traffic Rank on Alexa.com).


10 posted on 08/05/2004 9:09:17 PM PDT by GeorgiaYankee (Now Playing -- John Kerry: The Frenchurian Candidate!)
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To: happydogdesign
Good post. Thanks.

Of course the Guard uses village idiots to train as fighter jet pilots. /sarcasm>

11 posted on 08/05/2004 9:09:37 PM PDT by GVnana
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To: GeorgiaYankee

"Over 100,000 people have registered for posting privileges on Free Republic"
i'm surprised there arent more! What's the point of being a conservative if you don't get to post on(and get your news from) FR? :)


12 posted on 08/05/2004 9:11:39 PM PDT by Betaille ("Show them no mercy, for none shall be shown to you")
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Great Post Tonk

Eagles Up

13 posted on 08/05/2004 9:11:46 PM PDT by MJY1288 (John Kerry Would Still Be Negotiating With the Taliban if he Was President)
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To: happydogdesign

Finally an article that lays all on the line that you can read and understand...and compare.


14 posted on 08/05/2004 9:13:53 PM PDT by Jewels1091
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To: happydogdesign

Any numbskull can drive a boat.....


15 posted on 08/05/2004 9:14:07 PM PDT by cabojoe
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To: happydogdesign

Does anyone know who the heck this "Jennifer Braun" is and whether she is someone whose opnion counts?

Not that she is right or wrong, but whether or not she has a metaphorical platfom and megaphone.

I've never heard of her.


16 posted on 08/05/2004 9:14:29 PM PDT by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: happydogdesign

My first thought was that the Hollywood 'rats should be forced to read this. John Cusak (sp?), Aflac Ben and the rest just don't get the fact that

IDIOTS don't get to fly fighter jets. combat or otherwise.


17 posted on 08/05/2004 9:15:05 PM PDT by sayfer bullets
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To: GVgirl
"Kerry entered and abandoned Vietnamese village and slaughtered domestic animals
owned by the civilians and burned down their homes with his Zippo lighter."



It only takes one idiot to raze a village!

(My original response! Zippo lighter courtesty of FReeper Helms)

18 posted on 08/05/2004 9:15:36 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: MJY1288

After this election, if I ever hear the words "hero" or "divided country" again, I'll go postal.


19 posted on 08/05/2004 9:16:01 PM PDT by Howlin (Saving Private Hamster)
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To: GeorgiaYankee

Hey, I got the email; that's good stuff!


20 posted on 08/05/2004 9:16:26 PM PDT by Howlin (Saving Private Hamster)
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To: happydogdesign

It is really striking how ignorant the lying Clintonslime such as McAwful are on this topic. Not only do they have no experience in the military, they can't even accurately digest information about the military, including about weapons systems.


21 posted on 08/05/2004 9:17:41 PM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: happydogdesign

Question for Jennifer Braun:

Which aircraft are you qualified to fly and with which unit are/were you attached? Since you seem to consider yourself completely qualified to critique the F-102 ("useless aircraft"), one can only surmise that you do so from a "experienced" point of view.

Or, are you a just a "spitter"?


22 posted on 08/05/2004 9:21:15 PM PDT by Howie66 ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people.")
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To: happydogdesign

This whole issue has been full of hypocrisy. Jimmy Carter pardoned draft dodgers and deserters. When Dan Quayle ran for Vice President, Liberals complained that he was in the National Guard. Clinton joined ROTC to avoid the draft, and then backed out of it when he wasn't drafted. But hey, time to move on, the liberals said. George Bush flew a dangerous plane with a real world mission, and Liberals say that wasn't enough. Most of these Liberals, however, have never worn a uniform unless it's on halloween. Yet they're feigning outrage. Pure partisan politics is what they're up to.


23 posted on 08/05/2004 9:22:46 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Liberalism corrupts. Absolute Liberalism corrupts absolutely.)
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To: cabojoe
Any numbskull can drive a boat.....

And beach it.

24 posted on 08/05/2004 9:23:30 PM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: sayfer bullets

Bah, I don't think it would do any good. Not only would they need to be able to comprehend the text and not merely repeat it with an emotional flair, they can't even keep straight whether they believe he's an idiot or an evil genius.


25 posted on 08/05/2004 9:25:14 PM PDT by kenth
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To: Jewels1091
I suppose that Kerry was sh#tcanned off the USS Gridly to riverine. The Navy used to have a way of taking someone who were under achieving and sending to an an area of work that might help them reevaluate their career choices
26 posted on 08/05/2004 9:28:28 PM PDT by oyez (¡Qué viva la revolución de Reagan!)
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To: cabojoe
Good Gawd, you sound like my wife!

LOL

FRegards....

27 posted on 08/05/2004 9:28:47 PM PDT by smoothsailing (Eagles Up !!!!)
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To: happydogdesign
There are two significant omissions in this otherwise good presentation.

It never discusses the three major combat commands in the 1970's USAF structure, SAC, TAC and ADC.

The ADC (Air Defense Command) was based solely in North America, and Iceland but was mostly CONUS and was exclusively given the mission of identifying, intercepting and destroying any enemy airborne intruder. By it's very structure, the USAF had committed a large resource of aircraft (and pilots) to stateside unique assignments. The ADC bases were typically located on the country's borders and coastlines.

As the Vietnam war created a demand for pilots, active duty pilots were steered towards TAC (Tactical Air Comand) and SAC (Strategic Air Command). The ADC was backfilled with Air Guard and Reserve units and was the first major USAF combat command to integrate active and Reserve/Guard units under a single command structure.

The Second omission was the presumption that a graduate of pilot training had his choice or aircraft. UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training) officers were allowed to fill out assignment preference sheets, most selected fighters. But, the assignments were always subject to the needs of the service. The only control a pilot had was, as a reservist, placing his preference for a reserve base location. This steered the assignment section as to which type of aircraft specific follow-on training the graduate received. If you've ever gone through this process, you know why they call 'em dream sheets.

28 posted on 08/05/2004 9:29:50 PM PDT by pfflier
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To: happydogdesign
Any body that bothers to do a simple Google search would find the F102 was used in Vietnam

F102 destroyed by the NVA at Da Nang

29 posted on 08/05/2004 9:32:52 PM PDT by tophat9000
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To: happydogdesign
It really bothers me that a coward like George W. Bush spent the Vietnam War training to fly old and useless planes in Texas

A few old and "useless" planes used in Viet Nam with a great deal of success.


30 posted on 08/05/2004 9:35:38 PM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: tophat9000

bump


31 posted on 08/05/2004 9:36:48 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: happydogdesign

Bump....


32 posted on 08/05/2004 9:40:39 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: Howlin

glad ya liked it!
I forgot to put in the Dean scream, though!
There's too much lefty lunacy to fit into 2 minutes!


33 posted on 08/05/2004 9:51:44 PM PDT by GeorgiaYankee (Now Playing -- John Kerry: The Frenchurian Candidate!)
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To: happydogdesign

Bump for after a good night's sleep.


34 posted on 08/05/2004 9:53:55 PM PDT by AUsome Joy
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To: happydogdesign

bump


35 posted on 08/05/2004 9:54:05 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... "The terrorists will be defeated, there can be no other option" - Colin Powell)
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: pfflier

Not exactly true on the choice of an aircraft for Guard pilots.

A Guard pilot was not assigned to a particular aircraft by a central selection process like an Air Force pilot. A guardsman belonged to the sponsoring unit that selected him and then sent him away to pilot training. That individual belonged to that Guard unit. He didn't have a choice on what aircraft he would fly - he would be coming back to that unit and the aircraft it possesed.

Back in February the left wing press made a big deal about Bush checking off "Do not volunteer for overseas duty" on the form called the Dream Sheet used for assignment preferences. That was because as a Guardsman you did not have a choice - you belonged to your sponsoring unit and were going to be stationed at that base and fly that aircraft. Because the form was meaningless for a Guardsman (it was only there because some genius insisted that Guard personnel folders looked like the active Air Force folders), personnel weenies told us to check off the "NO" box. You could have checked YES all you wanted, but you weren't going anywhere except with your unit.

For those of us who were there in the 60's and 70's, it is entertainment to watch these brain-dead investigative journalists screw up this Bush Guard issue with their uneducated guesses and conspiracy theories. Their ignorance also explains why they don't understand or challenge the Kerry records and deceptions.


37 posted on 08/05/2004 10:04:05 PM PDT by oldbill
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Very well said!


38 posted on 08/05/2004 10:06:01 PM PDT by GVnana
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To: Howlin
After the landslide victory for George W. Bush, the Democrats will be forced to regroup or become extinct.

Any Rat Bastard that claims George W. Bush is who divided this country after 9/11 is devoid of the facts.

This whole division deal started when Hillary Rotten Clinton waddled her fat ass on to the Senate floor with her copy of the New York Post that had big bold letters that spelled "Bush Knew" as the headline and ask the question "What did the President know, and when did he know it"

From that day on, the democrats have trotted out every distorted lie and personal attack on this President they could muster. When that didn't work they called on their leftist Authors to write about how "Bush Lied" Then we saw people like Joe Wilson come forth with completely fabricated stories to undermine our efforts in Iraq. Many of those who served under Der Schlickmeister heard the call as well and joined the likes of Richard Clark to make false statements about the intension's of this President.

Now after three years of countless unsuccessful attacks on our President, they have turned to "Hollywood Has beens" and "Restless Rock Stars" in a last ditched attempt to trash this President, they even enlisted that vile scumbag Michael Moore to produce a movie that will go down in history as the most anti-american leftist propaganda film ever to be seen on the big screen or endorsed by a political party in this country.

So no matter what these loony leftist we are up against say, they are the ones who have divided this country with their desperate efforts to regain the power they once had. This story will be told before November, and it will be told by George W. Bush himself. An insider has told me so :-)

39 posted on 08/05/2004 10:08:02 PM PDT by MJY1288 (John Kerry Would Still Be Negotiating With the Taliban if he Was President)
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To: VeniVidiVici; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; buffyt; COEXERJ145; kabar; hoosiermama; The Wizard; ...

36, please.


40 posted on 08/05/2004 10:14:31 PM PDT by Howlin (Saving Private Hamster)
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To: mike85t
As to the claim that Kerry accused fellow soldiers of war crimes you might want to read his statement before deciding whether to believe that or not.

Read it? We have it memorized.

It's burned into our hearts and souls.

41 posted on 08/05/2004 10:16:16 PM PDT by Howlin (Saving Private Hamster)
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To: mike85t

John Kerry and War Crimes in Vietnam
(He was in command of a Swift Boat
and ordered his men to do these things.
Listen to this 1971 audio clip)

http://www.streamload.com/jmstein77/Kerry2.mp3


42 posted on 08/05/2004 10:16:50 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: mike85t

mike85t
Since Aug 6, 2004

See ya troll!


43 posted on 08/05/2004 10:19:23 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: mike85t
can hardly be true with the AP being involved in an FOIA lawsuit to obtain the more pertinent ANG personnel records which are kept in Austin,TX.

And when will John Kerry be producing HIS records????

44 posted on 08/05/2004 10:20:42 PM PDT by Howlin (Saving Private Hamster)
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To: mike85t

Hate to bust your bubble, but the AP FOIA request resulted in just two new sheets of paper being uncovered, which were summary pay records for 3rd quarter of 72 and 1st of 69. But the information on these sheets was already displayed on the records presented in February, because these sheets show a running summary for the previous 4 quarters,; thus the info on"missing" sheet for 3rd qtr 72 was repeated on the existing sheet for 4th qtr 72.

The AP is clueless on Guard records. The records kept atstate headquarters are the same ones kept in Denver in the Air Force archives. There never was a discrepancy between the two. And don't try to challenge me on this - I was there, and have the same sets of records as Bush. The press (USA Today and Washington Post) interviewed me on this very topic, but not getting the anti-Bush information they wanted, dropped the story.

If the AP and the rest of the press ever were in the Guard in the 70's they would have known that. But trying to pin something on Bush always makes a good story. Now, if you would ask your hero Kerry to post all his military records, you might be surprised to find what he has been hiding - like the two years of records from 70-72 when he was an active (drilling) Reservist but never showed up.


45 posted on 08/05/2004 10:20:49 PM PDT by oldbill
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To: Eaker

"good read" ping


46 posted on 08/05/2004 10:21:02 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: mike85t
I'm John Kerry and I approve
the desecration of the American Flag.



47 posted on 08/05/2004 10:21:30 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: oldbill

Yet another "liberal" has arrived "with the facts" to educate us.

HAR!


48 posted on 08/05/2004 10:21:45 PM PDT by Howlin (Saving Private Hamster)
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To: happydogdesign
Wow! Great post, H-Dog. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: that Dubya piloted the F-102 tells me three things about him:

1. He is of above average intelligence
2. He can think fast
3. He's got two mighty big brass ones.

People who think Dubya is stupid are fools. The truth is that a person needs an IQ well above average to fly an F-102. An average dimwit could no more be a figher jock than a one-legged man could ride a unicycle.

49 posted on 08/05/2004 10:26:45 PM PDT by Finny (God continue to Bless President G.W. Bush with wisdom, popularity, and victory.)
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To: mike85t
"Editorial Notes by Dr. Ernest Bolt, University of Richmond"

The key word in the link you posted is "Editorial"

John Kerry's sworn testimony to the Senate in 1971 betrayed every person in the Military. He betrayed his fellow comrades and he betrayed his country with the lies he told that day. Not to mention the fact that it was a Bobby Kennedy speech writer who penned that pro communist drivel he spoke that day.

50 posted on 08/05/2004 10:37:41 PM PDT by MJY1288 (John Kerry Would Still Be Negotiating With the Taliban if he Was President)
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