Radovan Karadzic: "It's better for them to kill me"

YES, IT WAS AN unusual picture of a man who is generally seen as The Most Wanted Man in the world. Radovan Karadzic, the former psychiatrist, the former leader of the Bosnian-Serbian party SDS, the former president of the Bosnian-Serbs. Believed to be the architect of ethnic cleansing and atrocities which we only know from the books and films (I mean, I wasn't born yet) about World War 2, and now sitting on a couch with his 3-months young grandson Nebosha sleeping on his belly. Nebosha, by the way, means: Don't be afraid.

MY NAME IS ROB SIEBELINK, a Dutch journalist working for the Drentse Courant/Groninger Dagblad. I made this photo at Karadzic's house in Pale, Bosnia, where I was able to interview him a whole long Saturday afternoon at the end of April 1997. It was an unique interview, because Karadzic didn't talk to journalists -especially not western journalists- for years.

THE STORY WAS PUBLISHED on May 18 in my newspaper Drentse Courant/Groninger Dagblad, a Dutch regional newspaper, and eighteen other regional newspapers in Holland who are connected to the Associated Press Services (Geassocieerde Persdiensten). Later on it was published in magazines and newspaper abroad.

AT THAT TIME, I was only allowed to discuss the indictments of the War Tribunal in The Hague, Holland, with him. Some things Karadzic says in this interview do make sense, others do not. You have to realize that Karadzic is making his point of view, I'm not. Anyway, I think it's worth reading it.

AS I SAID ALREADY, it was a long interview which lasted six hours. That's why I split the story into four parts.

He was anti-communist under the rule of Tito. A dissident in his native Yugoslavia. Now he is the pariah of the entire world. Believed to be the architect of the atrocities and ethnic cleansing in the Bosnian civil war. Radovan Karadzic. A psychiatrist turned war-criminal.

Rob Siebelink, a reporter with the Dutch newspaper Drentse Courant/Groninger Dagblad was able to interview Karadzic exclusively at the end of April 1997 in his family house in Pale.

"KARADZIC IS STILL MY president," says driver Rade. "He helped us through the war." Later he switches into low gear, moving the vehicle vehemently up the mountain slope "My father was killed by the Muslims in Zepa. He was cut into pieces. Not to be recognized. They have identified him by his hair. I hate Muslims. Wouldn't you?"

THE ARMORED AUDI 100 races along, amidst overpopulated churchyards. Fresh, colorful flowers on the many graves embedded in the first spring green. The mountains in far away Sarajevo still carry more than a meter snow. Spring is late this year.

Near the village Han Pijesak, the driver points at the thick needle woods in front. "The general", he says. "There lives general Mladic."

Behind these hilltops lives general Ratko Mladic. He is still a hero in the small Bosnian-Serbian republic. Last year he had to step down as commander in chief. Just like his political boss, Radovan Karadzic. And that is where we are going. Radovan Karadzic. The psychiatrist, the poet, the leader of the Serbian democratic party, until last year president of the Bosnian Serbs. And not in the last place the most wanted war-criminal since World War II.

SINCE KARADZIC AS A consequence of the Dayton-agreement has left the political stage, he seldom is seen in public. Even as a politician he rarely gave interviews. Now, wanted by the The Hague-tribunal and in the very sure knowledge that he has many enemies who would gladly kill him, he has been hiding away in the heart of his own country.

Yet, there seems to be a change in the small unrecognized republic Srpska. Karadzic himself agreed to this interview. At home with his own family, so as not to give the impression that the former president is still a powerful man.

His advisers were against it. The Serbs had a rough ride in the world-press and they were not very confident that this would have changed. But contrary to this advice Karadzic agreed to this interview. He explains: "I am the world's bogeymen number one. The media made me into this. Now I will have to defend myself in the media as well."

IN PALE, THE VILLAGE Karadzic hand picked to become the capital of his Bosnian-Serb republic, the car follows a sand path for some minutes. There are two heavily guarded roadblocks. Later we hear that in the houses and bushes around many eyes follow the car and our every movement.

There is nothing in sight which resembles the residence of a former president. The car stops in front of a normal house, amidst other normal houses. Out of the blue guards carrying guns and walkie-talkies emerge. The driver is waved out and for a moment I sit alone in the car.

THEN THE FRONT DOOR opens and Karadzic appears. His security men do not allow him to set one foot outside his door. We see his usually uncombed hair, slippers, a woolen vest. His trousers are kept in place with braces.

This is a surprise. We expected to see a heavily guarded villa with high walls. A garden. A swimming pool perhaps. Two neighbors do not look up. One woman collects wood. Another woman tries to loosen the still frosty ground. " You see", the driver says proudly, "our president is a very common man"

Yet this hideaway makes sense. There is no better hiding place than among your own loyal people. No security service or presidential guard can match this, as colonel Ghadaffi illustrated in his tent.

KARADZIC SMILES AND LEADS me into the living room. There we have to admire his three months old grandson Nebosja (which means "do not be afraid") who will for the largest part of the five hours lasting interview sleep contently on his grand dad's big belly. Knowing what the allegations are against this man, I find this an almost schizophrenic situation as we talk about Srebrenica, Sarajevo, Trnopolje and the hostage taking of UN-military.

YOU MOVED AS A fifteen year old boy from your native Montenegro to Sarajevo. Was this intentionally?

"I made that choice deliberately. It was closer to my place of birth than for instance Belgrade. And we loved Bosnia. The part of Montenegro where I was born used to be a part of Bosnia. During the Turkish occupation it was added to Montenegro."

SO YOU SEE YOURSELF not as an inhabitant of Montenegro, but more as a Bosnian.

"I regard myself as a Serb from Bosnia. But our etnic background did not matter then. Yugoslavia was my country. After my wife and I had finished our studies in Sarajevo we took extra courses in Belgrade and the Freudian School in Zagreb. Zagreb is a wonderful place. Although at the time there was a separatistic movement, I felt very much at home in Zagreb."

"No, that is to say... we were called 'Bourgeois-Serbs' then. In a way I have been as an anti-communist a dissident for 35 years. But also living in Sarajevo was very pleasant. The town was western-oriented and even the Muslims felt more Serb than Muslim. In fact, that is what they are. They are Serbs who became Muslim during the Turkish occupation. Many of them were in favor of their Yugoslavian background, because the national unity then was more important than religious differences. That now has turned the full 180 degrees. The Muslims deny now there has ever been a bond between them and the Serbs."

On this page: About the SDS, ethnic cleansing and the beginning of the war in Bosnia.

"In retrospective I can say that was already the case in 1974. At that time there had been some constitutional changes which gave more power to the republics of Bosnia and Croatia. Then also our identity changed. Before 1974 we were seen as 'Bourgeois-Serbs'; a kind of anarcho-liberals. After 1974 we became Serbian nationalists who were campaigning for a large Serbia."

"Well. I wanted Yugoslavia to survive. Yugoslavia was a good country to live in."

YOU BET. YOU LIVED with your family in multi-ethnic Sarajevo. Your best neighbors were Croatian people and Muslims. The Godfather of your brother is a Muslim...

"We did not invent ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia. The Croatian people did that during the second World War. And everybody knows that Muslim leader Izetbegovic has worn a German uniform. Before the war in Bosnia he has written a book in which he has told us what to expect when Bosnia would be a Muslim-state with an Islamic regime. His words were clear. No mistakes about that. Tudjman of Croatia had conducted a very fierce campaign during the 1990 elections in Bosnia. And when he and Izetbegovic formed an alliance the message was clear. This was not meant against the Germans or the Russians. This was aimed at the Serb population. All Serbs were frightened to death that the same would happen as in World War II when hundreds of thousands innocent Serbs were slaughtered.That was the time when we decided to form our own political party. I was not a political animal. I was happy at that time. We were a successful family. My wife and I each had a well run practice and money enough. But we decided we could not leave our own people here in Bosnia without political protection."

THAT DID NOT HELP very much. To the contrary. It was the beginning of a further radicalization.

"We did everything to prevent a war in Bosnia. And we have plenty of evidence for that. We accepted the Lisbon-agreement, the European plan for the division of Yugoslavia. I have accepted the Vance-Owen plan in Athens. It is true that it was later voted down in our own parliament, but I accepted it. I have eventually agreed to the separation of Bosnia from Yugoslavia. That was the largest risk I have ever taken in my life. With that decision we became a minority in our own country. But I accepted, to prevent a war."

"The saddest part of it all is that the Lisbon-agreement looked much like the Dayton-agreement four years later. Why did we wage war in those years? The Muslims had accepted Lisbon, the Croats accepted, we accepted. And then the Muslims shoved it aside under the influence of the American ambassador Warren Zimmerman and your own Hans van den Broek (The Dutch foreign minister then, RS). They knew a war was inevitable when Bosnia would be recognized without an agreement. They are responsible for what happened afterwards."

"That started with the referendum on independence. That was constitutionally illegal since questions of ethnic groups had to be dealt with on the basis of consensus and not on the basis of a majority. On the second day of the referendum there was an attack on a Serb wedding. But the real trigger was Izetbegovic announcing a full mobilization on April 4 1992. He could not do that without Serb consent, but he did it all the same."

"I telephoned him directly and told him: 'You are making a terrible mistake. Why do you do it. You know what will happen when the Muslims take to arms. The Croats will take to arms. And you know how the Serbs will react.' He agreed but he said it was too late to reverse the decision. That night terror reigned in Sarajevo. The night of April 4 until the morning of April 5 1992. Then the Muslims started the war and we were never able to stop it."

THE MUSLIMS SAY THAT the Yugoslav Federal Army (YNA) was dominated by the Serbs and sent by Belgrade. They had very good reasons to be afraid of the YNA, especially after what happened in Croatia.

"The Yugoslav Federal Army was not be trusted. They had at times tried to create a buffer between us and the Muslims but they rarely helped us. They themselves were constantly under attack and they were busier retreating than helping us. Moreover: the army saw us as nationalists and anti-communists. To them there was no difference at all between Izetbegovic, Tudjman and Karadzic.We did not have an army during the first six weeks. On May 20 1992 the Yugoslav army left Bosnia. Only then we formed our own command structure. I was elected president of the Bosnian Serbs on may 12 and only thereafter Radko Mladic was appointed commander in chief. But he was a general without an army. It took us the remainder of 1992 to get control over all sorts of different groups fighting all over the place. It was my first act as president. From June 13 they had to join within three days or they would be seen as, and prosecuted as, criminals."

BUT WITH THIS YOU concede that you knew what happened. That all over Bosnia Serbs were murdering.

"Of course. But I can prove that ethnic cleansing was not a political target. War crimes were prohibited from the beginning. Strictly prohibited. And I repeated that order many times. I am reasonably sure that the commanders in the field did not allow war crimes, or worse: gave orders to commit them. I dare to take responsibility for what the army and the police have done. But I cannot take responsibility for what citizens have done to each other. That was World War II continued. Old feuds and revenge was taken. It was chaos, nothing but chaos. It was literally citizens against citizens. Families that had killed during the war did so again, or just the reverse. I did not condone it. War criminals must be brought to justice. That was a very strict order."

"We brought five thousand people to justice, 4500 of them were Serbs. Our courts convicted them."

"I have not seen all the convictions. But I know there are penalties of ten, fifteen, sometimes even more years imprisonment. There have been four death penalties. I know of a case in Pryedor where a group of Muslims had paid to be smuggled to Yugoslavia and were killed. Our people have taken their money. Was this ethnic cleansing? No, because they wanted to leave Bosnia. Was this murder? Yes, because they were all killed and our people who were guilty of this have been sent to prison for twenty years. We insisted that criminals had to go to jail although we could use every man."

(finally something of a smile)"Yes. By people of my own party who accused me of being too soft."

DID YOU EVER PROSECUTE commanders of your army or police because they ignored your orders?

"That was not my position. I gave orders to general Mladic. He was the commander in chief of the army."

YOU STATE: I AM not responsible. But there is a difference between BEING responsible and FEELING responsible. Do you not feel any responsibility?

" Absolutely not. I repeat: The military authorities and the civil authorities did not condone any war crimes."

"Yes, they have happened because there was a civil war. The civilians fought each other and that was the problem. It may be possible that here or there a soldier or a policeman was involved, but there were not many of them. It was not our way of working and certainly not official policy."

"There were tens of thousands Muslim soldiers in Sarajevo. They shelled the Serbian parts of the town. During a press conference UN-general McKenzie was asked: 'Why do the Serbs shoot at schools and hospitals?' His answer was: 'Why do Muslims place artillery and guns near schools and hospitals?' Every soldier knows you have the right to fire back when you are fired at."

BUT THE SHELLING OF of the marketplace and the bread line in Sarajevo, with as a result the horrible pictures which shocked the world; nobody can justify that.

"It is very clear what has happened there. The Muslims have done that themselves to show the world how the Serbs slaughtered innocent citizens. They have done that several times. What happened when the pope paid a visit to Sarajevo recently? Along the road the Pope mobile was supposed to go, 25 anti-tank mines were discovered."

"Of course the Serbs were blamed. But how on earth could the Serbs get a truck with 25 anti-tank mines into a city that is dominated by the Muslim army? The Muslims were able to detonate the mines within twenty minutes. I assure you: our experts would have needed at least two hours to do the same. It was a set-up. A game they have played over and over again and the world believes it. When they needed their 'No-fly Zone' they shot an Italian helicopter down. It was deep in Muslim territory, but the Serbs got the blame and they got their No Fly Zone."

"It never was. And if you don't believe me why don't you ask former UN-secretary-general Boutros Ghali. He told me more than once that Srebrenica was a Muslim stronghold and that nearby Serbian villages were constantly attacked. During the last months of the enclave every day a Serb was killed by attacks. A total of 1260 Serbs killed. The UN knows. The Dutch commander of the Dutch UN troops in Srebrenica knows."

He produces a pile of documents with long lists of casualties near Srebrenica.

"Here. April 1992, may 1992, June 1992. All killed. And this document is an order of Muslim-commander Naser Oric of Srebrenica in which he orders a sabotage-attack with the names of those who had to carry out the mission. They have been decorated but they should be prosecuted for war crimes. And these are the religious instructions Muslim clergy gave to the troops before they attacked."

BUT THAT IS NOT a crime. All combatants do that, catholics, protestants, Muslims.

"Of course that is not a crime. But it shows there was a holy war. A Jihad. There are many documents which show that a complete division of the Muslim army was in Srebrenica. There was no question of a demilitarized zone. The Muslims never had the intention to turn Srebrenica into a safe-haven. It was vital to their army that they could continually attack us from Srebrenica. It meant that we had to keep many soldiers there to resist them. Soldiers we could not use around Sarajevo. And we could not allow that our people were being killed from a so-called safe-haven. IT JUST HAD TO STOP."

"There was no need to. There was a permanent order to attack. Every attack was answered with a counter attack. And so it happened in the beginning of July 1995. We counter attacked and suddenly we could move forward. Because, as it later appeared, Izetbegovic had ordered his army to leave Srebrenica."

"It was not a planned attack. We could not deploy new troops. Our problem has always been that we had to fight on a very long front of thousands of kilometers with too few troops. In Srebrenica there were 9000 Muslim troops. It would have taken us at least 40.000 men to drive them out. We did not have them. When we took Srebrenica we were at least as surprised as everybody else. If the Muslim army had not left the enclave we could never have taken it. Military impossible. Only later we learned that a large part of the Muslim troops were ordered to break out and try to reach Tuzla. The Muslims themselves have given up Srebrenica."

DID GENERAL MLADIC TELL tell you personally what was happening in Srebrenica. That he could move forward so easily?

"No, because we did not expect to take the enclave. Also Mladic did not inform me on a day to day basis. He had his own job to do. Then he rang me and said: 'I am in Srebrenica'. I was astonished and could not believe him. I asked him where the Muslim-army was. He told me they had left. There was fighting all over the place but mostly in the mountains, he told. Of course we found this very unusual. When we arrived in Srebrenica there were no Muslim soldiers there. Just the civilian population and the Dutch UN soldiers. Izetbegovic has been severely criticized by his own people for this move. He gave up Srebrenica to move more troops to Sarajevo and to provoke an international military intervention. In this he succeeded."

GENERAL MLADIC AND YOU have been accused of mass murder of many Muslim men after the taking of Srebrenica.

"I know Mladic as a very strict man. I can complain about many things about him but I am sure that he would personally ruin a soldier who was guilty of murder or rape. He is very disciplined and would never have allowed it."

LET US NOT DISCUSS numbers. But it is very sure that many Muslim men were killed directly after the attack was over.

"I cannot say there have not been acts of personal vengeance afterwards. Revenge for the things that happened before. We had our 1260 dead bodies. But then these must have been individual acts of revenge."

"Of course . And that is why we ordered to bring people to justice who are guilty of these crimes. But for that the commanders must have known it and seen it. When individual soldiers do these things while there superiors do not know, what could they do?"

On this page: The killing of thousands of Muslims in Srebrenica and his unknown future.

YOU AND GENERAL MLADIC could foresee that revenge was high on the list with your troops.

"Ask the commanders. They will say we have done everything possible to prevent this from happening. Once more. You never know how individuals act. But that is not the responsibility of general Mladic and certainly not my responsibility."

A COMMANDER IS RESPONSIBLE for the acts of his men. And that is also why the War Tribunal accuses you and general Mladic of war crimes.

UP TO THIS VERY MOMENT thousands of Muslims are reported missing from Srebrenica.

"Eight thousand is what they have said. But where are the mass graves? During the council-elections last year three thousand missing Muslims registered as voters. Where did they come from? They have reported every soldier that was killed during the fighting up to 1995. When the Muslim-army broke out of Srebrenica there has been terrible fighting. They tried to break through our lines to reach their own territories. Not because they fled, but because they were ordered to.There was one defense line with fifty Serbs in a trench. They were all killed. Can you imagine how many Muslim soldiers have died to take that trench? It must have been hundreds and hundreds of them. They have reached Tuzla. But don't ask at what cost."

IF THE ATTACK ON Srebrenica was not planned. Why was there a constant harassment of the Dutch UN battalion there?

"That was not our business. There were differences of opinion between the UN and the Serb army. The Serb commanders often complained about the quantities of food the UN troops said they needed. Quarrels between local commanders. We had nothing to do with that."

BUT WHY HAS GENERAL Mladic, when Srebrenica in fact had fallen, taken Dutch military as hostage and threatened to shoot them if there were any air attacks by the UN.

"I really do not know anything about this. You are the first person telling me this. I don't know anything about a Serb threat like this."

THAT'S HARD TO BELIEVE. And how can you justify that you have taken hostage those UN soldiers and chained them to bridges and military installations?

"They were no civilians, so they cannot be hostages. Their commanders gave the orders to bomb the Serbs. How can they be peace keepers and at the same time bomb us. They were not hostages."

"And rightly so. Absolutely rightly so. They were our enemies at that time. Before we took this action three hundred Serbs were killed in air attacks. After that nobody. Can you imagine how many of our own people would have been killed if Mladic had not taken this measure? It was a desperate attempt on our side confronted with an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. We were in a absolutely desperate situation. And let me tell you this. Some of them guided the planes to their targets. In that case they are not civilians and no neutral UN-personnel, but enemies."

"Well. If you want to, you can arrest anybody and kill everybody. Perhaps it would be better for the international community to kill me then to take me to trial in The Hague. Once I am there I will cause many more problems."

"On the condition that the Tribunal will be impartial. That it will not be politically biased. On the condition that also Tudjman and Izetbegovic will stand trial in The Hague. Yes in that case I will be prepared to go to The Hague and answer any question that may be possibly asked."

THE INTERVIEW HAS ENDED. Karadzic hands his grandson to his wife. In the five hours we spoke with him she bitterly complained that he was too selfish with his grandson. She too had the right to hold him. Little Nebosha is unaware of the territorial claims of his grandparents. Nebosha sleeps.

On the other side...

"... The first and foremost of such conclusions is surely the one on the incompatibility of Islam and non- Islamic systems. There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf. Therefore, there is no question of any laicistic principles, and the state should be an expression and should support the moral concepts of the religion. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, "Islamska deklaracija", Sarajevo, 1990, p. 22

"... the Islamic movement should and must start taking over the power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to not only overthrow the existing non-Islamic, but also to build up a new Islamic authority. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, "Islamska deklaracija", Sarajevo, 1990, p. 43

The subtitle under the photograph reads: "Faith in action: A Muslim brigade of the Bosnian Army marching in a millitary parade in Zenica, central Bosnia." (Photograph: Reuter) (The Independent, Dec. 11, 1995	Izetbegovic's Bosnian Muslim "El Mujahedin" Unit - on the emblem you can read: "Naš put je Džihad" - "Our way is the jihad"
One of the Bosnian Army Muslim brigades marches through Zenica in a demonstration of strenght by 10,000 soldiers. Page 10 (The Times, Dec. 11, 1995)	Another emblem of a Bosnian Muslim jihad unit
Dance macabre - a decapitation performed in Bosnia by Mujahedin as a reason for celebration.	Emblem of a Bosnian Muslim jihad unit
	Emblem of a Bosnian Muslim jihad unit
Izetbegovic and his Islamic warriors in Bosnia	Former Muslim President Alija Izetbegovic and Ebu Ali
Alija Izetbegovic with his Arab friends	Alija Izetbegovic with his Arab friends

Naser Oric

"The Asian Wall Street Journal reported that, in 1993, bin Laden had appointed Al Zawahiri, the Al-Qaeda´s second-in-command, to direct all his operations in the Balkans.

While no exact numbers exist, it is estimated that between 1500 and 3500 Arab volunteers participated in the Bosnian civil war. Their main area of operation was in the region of Zenica, with most Mujahadeen serving in the 7th Brigade of General Sakib Mahmuljin´s 3rd Corps, nicknamed 'the Guerrillas.' Identified by red and green 'Rambo' bandannas emblazoned with the crest 'our road is Jihad,' this unit earned a reputation for criminal brutality.

On 27 June 1993, the Sunday Times reported that even Bosnian Muslim officers had reservations about the Mujahadeen volunteers. Colonel Stjepan Siber, then-Deputy Commander of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army, admitted to the Times that 'It was a mistake to let [the Mujahedin] in here. They commit most of the atrocities and work against the interests of the Muslim people. They have been killing, looting and stealing.'

According to reports, it was the Mujahadeen who were serving with General Nasir Oric in the Muslim enclave of Srebrenica who committed some of the most barbaric atrocities of the war. Beheadings of Serbian civilians were commonplace, and in some villages the Mujahadeen would dynamite homes with the inhabitants trapped inside.

No attempt was made to hide such atrocities. In fact, General Oric would often address media at the site of the massacres. On one such occasion, while standing in front of Mujahadeen brandishing human head trophies, Oric pointed to a flaming ruin and proudly said to reporters, 'We blew those Serbs to the moon.'

Alija Izetbegovic was also proud to display the fighting prowess of his Mujahadeen volunteers. Following a successful attack against Serbian positions around Vozuce on 10 September 1995, the Bosnian President held a televised medal presentation parade. The Mujahadeen had provided the vanguard of the assault force, and were awarded 11 decorations for valour, including the Golden Crescent, Bosnia´s highest honour.

Yugoslav Intelligence estimates that over 1500 Bosnian citizenships were granted to Mujahadeen/Al-Qaeda fighters following the Dayton Peace Accord in 1995. Most of those soldiers are believed to have settled in the Zenica region."

The Ottawa Citizen, "Bin Laden´s Balkan Connections", December 16, 2001

Guess which side did the United States bomb, the Christians or the Muslims...

Karadjordje

"It's better for them to kill me"

We'd be happy to oblige, but prefer he be held accountable for his actions.

QUESTION: Is there any deadline for apprehending Karadzic and Mladic?

SECRETARY POWELL: No deadline. We want it as soon as possible. I wish it had been done years ago, and I hope that those that who may be harboring these individuals realize that the future of their country is being held at risk, by allowing these individuals to remain free. They are answerable to the people of Bosnia, and they are answerable to the international community for the crimes they have committed. Criminals should not escape justice. And unfortunately, those harboring these individuals make it more difficult for Bosnia to undertake the kind of reforms that it needs or to get the additional assistance that it requires from the international community, and which the international community wishes to provide. It keeps obstacles in the way of Bosnia’s full integration into institutions such as Partnership for Peace, leading to NATO membership and into the European Union. So, I hope they will be apprehended as soon as possible and it should’ve happened years ago.

In other words, you have no friends in America, and regardless of which administration is in power, you never will.

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