The M1A3 Abrams Tank Thread (proposals for modernizing our aging fleet of M1 and M1A1 tanks)

Multiple Sources ^ | 8/20/2004 | Multiple

[Arrowhead1952]

Sarge, did you see this article? Neato.

[Old Sarge]

Top Speed for an M-1? As fast as the driver dares go!

I can personally relate the experience of driving on the highways near Ft. Huachuca, AZ, at 55MPH, and an M1A1 on the frontage road pacing me. But judging from how banged about the tank was, it was a rough ride for the crew.

[Old Sarge]

Hey, Folks, just a few observations...

The M1 Series does what it's designed to do - engage enemy armor with overmatch range, firepower, and accuracy - but turning it into an infantry-killer might not be such the great thing.

All the add-on goodies we've discussed make for a great Swiss Army knife, but there are limits to what the vehicle can do. Ammo for all these gadgets has to be stowed someplace, and if anyone's ridden one, a tank's interior can get real crowded, real fast. Changing the gunner's coax, for instance: the ammo storage is rigged for 7.62; changing it to a .50 cal means less base load, or expand the ammo room.

An autoloader? The Soviet tanks have them. And we all knew to aim for the turret ring, to get a one-shot turret-launching catastrophic kill. Stories I heard coming out of Aberdeen indicate that the autoloader tended to load the crew, along with the round. Further, the turret has to be swung back to 000 azimuth, for the autoload to function; meaning that, during a fight, you had to slew the gun away from where the enemy was, to reload. With a man loading, the gunner/TC can keep the weapon trained on the enemy while the round's getting up.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

And you do a damn good job making them, too.

[hchutch]

Why not use the self-propelled M163 or buy more of the LAV-AA the USMC has?

Both are already available... all you need to do is hang a little extra armor on it.

[Light Speed]

Upgraded Israeli Merkava's in above Photo's.

An intersting thread on the M1A1..alot of good comments.

The other day on the T.V ..watched 2 M1A1's moving up the street in Najaf.....*Back to back.
At first..I thought the one tank was towing the other,
Then realized they were using this as a tactic to negate M1A1'a vulnerable spot..ie..The back turret deck and rear engine.

M1A1 was designed to be a fast mover and a schock,breakthru weapon.
This tank is zenith on the battlefield in this regard...and fullfills its purpose handsomely.

Its not a Ronson like the older tanks U.S. forces shoved at the enemy in numeric...even today..in worst situation..the Crew gets out..and thats what counts.

Israels Merkava above is a good ref for what a tank *can be,,as time evolution goes.
Combat lesson's learned applied type thing.
Merkava is more of a *Fight make stand tank....designed with the terrian in the region it will operate.
IDF reconfigured Merkava's turret with add on armor modules.
There is also a 360 field digital camera sytem....the TC commander can stay inside and be fully aware.

Shift;

What makes a tank especially valuable is its flexability in changing terrain and combat environment.
M1A1 can take just about anything fired at it so far.
I have looked for info..and at the time of this article am not really aware of situations where it faced *Top attack ATGM's...
IDF modded their turret design with this reality in mind.
Looking at the M1A1....it is entirley possible to mod this unit with additional armor modules to negate top attack.
I imagine they can design a armor package for the tanks rear aswell.
On a side note...I'm kinda in agreement with some of the posters on this thread who comment that the U.S. has everything it needs...the problem is the P.C. thingy..the resolve to use firepower application to shatter the enemy in situ.
a debate for another thread....ie..if we are going to Monday Quarterback Iraq,
my first comment is..*Why isn't airpower being used more?>

Looking at the destruction of Najaf's environs...it probably would have been best to let Helo's and A-10'S play,swepp the place until white surrender flags appear : )
Airpower unerves Hamdi bigtime...he flee's or dies....and thats what is needed.

If your enemy can get at you 360..your in trouble.
I guess this is the lesson being learned in Iraq.

As it stands...M1A1 is good for..another 15-20yrs?.
In that time..the U.S. will be into other Kinnetic energy gun systems..a new tank will emerge..and it will be an ass kicker like the M1A1 is.

So ya....U.S. has lost/write off...maybe 10-15 M1A1's so far in the Iraq war..with maybe 100+ offline for a time.

Far cry from the days of hundreds of gutted Shermans....tank gone.....crew gone.

M1A1 is still dominant in Iraq,
about the only thing that can stop it there.......is a bridge : )

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!!!

[Valin]

Bump for later.

[Shryke]

Two thoughts:

1. A gatling weapon used in a flat trajectory scenario (such as a tank firing on troops) would only be really effective if the barrel could cover a large area in quick movements (i.e. traverse the width of a house at 30 meters in one second). I don't believe the current turrets have that speed.

2. The GAU system is entirely too powerful for an urban scenario. You'd have hundreds of slugs punching through houses/buildings/schools for blocks. If you are that unconcerned with collateral damage, you may as well use air power or artillery.

[Southack]

"An autoloader? The Soviet tanks have them. And we all knew to aim for the turret ring, to get a one-shot turret-launching catastrophic kill. Stories I heard coming out of Aberdeen indicate that the autoloader tended to load the crew, along with the round. Further, the turret has to be swung back to 000 azimuth, for the autoload to function; meaning that, during a fight, you had to slew the gun away from where the enemy was, to reload. With a man loading, the gunner/TC can keep the weapon trained on the enemy while the round's getting up."

For 105mm and up, I agree that auto-loaders aren't ready for prime-time.

But for the 30mm gattling cannon as found on the A-10 attack fighter, auto-loading is the best solution, and it has proven itself in combat.

Moving that system from the air into an old M1 that would otherwise remain mothballed, deleting the 105mm main battle cannon from said M1, and upgrading the treads from 2 on the M1 to 4 half-tracks on the new vehicle would give you an urban infantry support platform.

It would be like having a super-armored A-10 attack fighter parked on the ground along with our infantry; always available; damn tough to kill; unmatched firepower always on tap.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Southack]

"2. The GAU system is entirely too powerful for an urban scenario. You'd have hundreds of slugs punching through houses/buildings/schools for blocks. If you are that unconcerned with collateral damage, you may as well use air power or artillery."

That's the most intelligent criticism of the idea that I've seen so far. Good point. Not a deal-killer, but good point.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Southack]

The Merkava is a great system. Unlike the old M1's that we have mothballed here in the States, it doesn't really need any upgrades at this point in time.

It would still benefit from having 4 half-tracks instead of just 2 giant full-sized treads (who wants to be immobilized if you lose 1 track, after all?!), but Israel has to be more careful with its tiny military budget than does the U.S., so that upgrade might not be worth the cost to them.

But you'll also notice that Israel isn't really using A-10's or AC-130 Spectre's in combat. Israel's approach to urban combat is entirely different than ours.

Military doctrines that use A-10's and AC-130's in combat would benefit from an M1A10 four-half-tracked, GAU-8 equipped upgrade of old, mothballed M1's.

Whether Israel's military would benefit from such a beast is another thing altogether.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Little Ray]

Why bother with a GAU-8? Go with a the Hughes Chain Gun from the Apache or a 20mm Vulcan. Or maybe quad 50's or or 20mm or twin 30mm or 40mm (IIRC Dusters did some pretty good work in Vietnam and the ZSU-23-4 was real threat against both air and soft targets). The GAU-8 is massive overkill for most urban work - remember, it was designed to kill tanks! Heck, maybe we could rework the Sgt. York (a total loser as ADA) into an infantry support vehicle.

Also these weapons are lighter, allowing for more armor or more ammo.

[Southack]

"A ground based SP GAU-8 30mm flakpanzer would not be near as impressive as a Warthog. As a direct fire system, it couldn't hit any targets the 120mm Abrams couldn't hit."

Suddenly surrounded by 600 enemy combatants, an existing M1 crew could fire 1 beehive round, pause, manually reload, swing the turret, fire a 2nd beehive round, pause, manually reload, swing the turret a bit more, fire a 3rd beehive round, etc., until after some great period of time a full circle was completed.

In contrast, a modified M1 with the GAU-8 would swing the turret 360 degrees while firing off 900 or more rounds of 30mm exploding anti-personnel rounds in that same time. No pauses. No manual reloads.

For an infantry support role in such a situation, the GAU-8 is clearly the preferred choice over the 105mm or 120mm beehive round.

We've got about what, some 2,000 mothballed M1's right now in the states?? Why not turn them into a brand new killing machine: an urban assault infantry support weapons platform?!

Heck, move their old 105mm main battle cannons onto Strykers or Bradleys if you want (to free up room to install the GAU-8), but do *something* to get the A-10's GAU-8 gattling cannon on the ground in an infantry support role in Iraq!

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Southack]

"Have you ever seen the inside of an abrams? I help make these things, your ideas are frought with costly problems."

I've only suggested two things: switching the mothballed M1's 105mm (or 120mm in some cases) with the A-10 fighter's GAU-8 30mm gattling cannon, and changing the two existing M1 treads into four half tracks.

What costly problems are these changes frought with, specifically?

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Light Speed]

The auto gattling gun system works.
I believe there is even a thermal detection coupler to this sytem which can see relative as per distance...do whoever is hiding on the other side of a wall.

IDF got some good mileage out of their M-113's with the auto gun during the Lebanon offensive in 1982.

Guess Hamdi just got slaughtered when he stood his ground.
The Blazer box armor add on's to IDF's tanks..plus the *Shredders...sent Hamdi running for Beruit on masse : )

Syrians got some too in the Suf mountains...laughing.....during a documentary from that war..a Lebanese civilian is at an Israeli check point..and wanting to go to his home up thar in the Suf.

"Waddya mean I can't go home....theirs no more Syrians up there....you've killed them all"!

Back to M1A1;
It would make sense to trial some new concepts....
It certainly would give a market reality on the re-engineering and fab.....create jobs : )
What use are the old M1A1's if they park them in storage...especially if they are 105mm gunned.
mod several hundred....part out the usefull to foreign sales or spares as you commented.

Still..I think M1A1 needs to get ready for Mr Top attack missile.
if addressed properly....M1A1 will be vaunted for a long time to come. Be interesting to see what changes occur to M1A1 in the future,
yet....we are likely to read more on the Military's money haggling/manuvering with Congress.

[hchutch]

My thing is this: How hard would it be to just bring the M163s out of mothballs instead? Self-propelled Vulcans with a high degree of commonality on Air Force and Navy planes (ergo, we still make parts because the M61A1 will be in the F/A-22 and F-35).

Thw LAV-AA uses the GAU-12 from the AV-8B. Both are already in service. Why not use them instead? Cheaper, and just as effective.

[Poohbah]

Because your idea doesn't generate a 20-year-long acquisition program that keeps a lot of consultants and civil servants employed.

[Southack]

"How hard would it be to just bring the M163s out of mothballs instead?"

It's my understanding that the M163 wouldn't help us because it can't shrug off RPG hits. The M1 can.

So when going into an urban warfare zone filled with RPG-carrying fanatics, some sort of gattling-cannon on an M1-based platform would be preferred.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Southack]

"Thw LAV-AA uses the GAU-12 from the AV-8B. Both are already in service. Why not use them instead? Cheaper, and just as effective."

Yeah. I could go with either the GAU-4 or the GAU-12 instead of the GAU-8, if necessary.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires