Science seen as slipping in U.S.

Houston Chronicle ^ | August 22, 2004 | ERIC BERGER

[Nick Danger]

Is 70% overwhelming?

You could suppress male outliers until you were blue in the face, and 600 would still get through your screen. Lopping off the top 600 and saying, "There? See that? Doping up boys on Ritalin while their brains are still forming has no effect at all. Tossing them into dumbed-down 'special ed' classes if they fidget more than girls is actually good for them!"

Never mind the 600 math Ph.D.s. Look at the TIMSS results. Our brightest kids — the ones in the advanced classes — are no better than average kids in other developed countries. We are obviously doing something in our K-12 education system that chops the performance of our smartest children. Arguing about whether we can still find 600 smart ones when the feminists are done celebrating Girl Power for 12 years is missing the forest for the trees. Sixty per cent of the incoming freshman classes are female, and a big fraction of the science and engineering majors are foreign. You don't need to know any more than that to understand what's going on. Enough with the anecdotal hoo-hah.

Look who's above us. Look who's below us. Does this make you think there's nothing wrong?

[Cincinatus' Wife]

I don't know the context of his remarks but I do know he is very pro space and Moon, Mars and Beyond.

Washington Times writer, Charles Rousseaux, said it was Marburger who got him to realize the importance of a renewed space program and from that understanding he wrote this: Space Vision Misunderestimated

And here is Marburger's House testimony: A New Paradigm for Space Exploration

[RightWhale]

I noticed something was wrong in 1970 when the hugh layoffs of engineering trained personnel began and the increase of foreign patents versus US patents became noticeable. This was hardly more than a decade after Congress went into Sputnik-induced panic mode.

The kids are as bright as ever, but a teamster warehouseman can do better financially than a EE. If they choose to take some college courses as well they will pick something useful such as English or business.

[Nick Danger]

The kids are as bright as ever, but a teamster warehouseman can do better financially than a EE.

Unable to refute my evidence that our school system is failing to prepare our next generation for the future, you resort to spraying arm-waving nonsense.

I'm just not an arm-waving kind of guy, and I can look up wages as fast as I can look up test scores. These are from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Occupation Title	Employment (1)	Median Hourly	Mean Hourly	Mean Annual
Electrical Engineers	146,150	$33.48	$34.66	$72,090
Electronics Engineers, Except Computer	137,320	$34.31	$35.16	$73,140
Computer Hardware Engineers	72,550	$36.53	$38.15	$79,350
Laborers and Freight, Stock, and Material Movers, Hand	2,255,780	$9.58	$10.41	$21,650
Machine Feeders and Offbearers	159,160	$10.57	$11.27	$23,430
Industrial Truck and Tractor Operators	604,350	$12.68	$13.46	$27,990

No more hoo-hah, please.

[Penner]

Graduate science programs at Rice and elsewhere are heavily dependent on  foreign students.  fees from foreign students.

[RadioAstronomer]

bump

[Cincinatus' Wife]

Nice slave labor for department heads too.

[Fiddlstix]

The U.S. education system is broken.

I'm not sure "broken" is the right word for it.
(It'll do for now though.)

[RadioAstronomer]

From my view (I have worked both unmanned at JPL and manned "Space Station"), the space program derailed itself in late 60s and then again in the early 70s. Many of my current colleagues agree.

IMHO, there were four cancellations that led us down the path we are currently on.

First was the cancellation of the X-15 and the subsequent follow-on. I personally believe that if we had pursued that to its ultimate end, we would have SSTO today.

Second was the cancellation of the NERVA. They were finally working the kinks out of it and poof, gone like the rest. Now we are renewing our interest in nuclear propulsion, however, 30 years have slipped by.

Third was the cancellation of the Saturn launch vehicle. Now we rely on Russian engines for one our heaviest lift vehicles. Even the Titan program is dead.

And finally the cancellation of the SP-100 space based nuclear power system and subsequent follow-on.

[RadioAstronomer]

Now President Bush has initiated "Moon, Mars and Beyond" to create a space infastructure that will use the Moon's resourses to explode a space industry and get us into the solar system.

IMHO, this was political. Not a hope of accomplishing what you are advocating on the budget mentioned in that very same speech.

[PatrickHenry]

Bump back atcha.

[KevinDavis]

Well don't put down the public schools. I mean they do more about in how to put condoms on and they feel better.

[RadioAstronomer]

I should have pinged ya to post 69 as well. Sorry.

[RadioAstronomer]

Figured you would know it this was worth a ping of the science ping list.

[Mamzelle]

We're about to be derailed again on Mars exploration.

The emphasis, once again, is getting the cart-rider before the horse or the cart.

Just a few weeks ago, influentials (which I can't name, so you can take this for the anonymous and unaccountable observation it has to be) in the planning stages of the Mars venture are hopelessly focused on "what we'll do when our guy is on the planet." Hoo boy. There's this thing called "air" we need, first. Not to mention that awful deal-breaker "home again, home again, riggedy jig."

A long way from what we'll do when we get there.

[LibertarianLiz]

scientists and policy-makers lay the blame in several areas: the drying well of foreign students, limited stem cell research and less federal funding for basic science research.

I love how they bat ZERO in listing the real problem here. Public education K-12 is completely failing our children. The public school system is so completely immersed in pushing their agenda of political correctness and multiculturalism that they don't teach even the basics to our children. The sciences, when taught, are taught poorly and the books used are not great, but are p.c.

I also love how they push the limited stem cell research as being the REAL reason we are now in "decline". (i.e. Its Bush's fault.) That's right --- limited embryonic stem cell research has brought scientific r&d in this country to a complete standstill. Yeah, right.

[freeangel]

"Our country's strength is in peril with the decline of education and family"

The democrats have a vested interest in having an uneducated population to preach socialistic principles.

[RadioAstronomer]

I agree with you completely!

IMHO, Manned Mars is the last place we should be focusing our money on. The infrastructure is just not up to par yet. Robotic missions are still the best method of exploring anything outside of cislunar.

[Mamzelle]

Not only that...but it is so do-able!! We've got the stuff. We all could go...now, not just a few crowned heads. Send the eyes and ears and hands. Pour that "riding" cash into robotics--think of the spinoffs, the big boost we'd enjoy in home hardware. All those little machines in hospital operating rooms could be retooled to go operating on the surface of another planet.

It drives me crazy.

[RadioAstronomer]

Again, I agree completely. I still feel we can exploit the Moon, however, we have squandered 30 years even doing that.

I still am honored and humbled that I was able to work at JPL and "fly" interplanetary spacecraft.

think of the spin-offs, the big boost we'd enjoy in home hardware. All those little machines in hospital operating rooms could be retooled to go operating on the surface of another planet.

Agreed. Moore's Law dictates that robotic autonomous spacecraft are not only doable, but also imminently practical.