Posted on 08/26/2004 11:05:33 PM PDT by n-tres-ted
Hi Willie, it was getting boring here without your pov being expressed in person :o)
Posing as "tax reform", the NRST (HR 2525) also represents a "land grab" where business interests are favored over individuals purchasing for their own use:
Posing?
H.R.25
SPONSOR: Rep Linder, John (introduced 01/7/2003)
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
Refer: http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org
Sure looks like tax reform to me.
Willy, how many years you going to continue with the same wornout irrational diatribe? You never change it or try even to clean it up to present a more coherent and rational argument for your postition. Just through it out there to bump a thread because you don't like seeing the NRST touted as a alternative to the income tax.
You continually throw it out inspite of the fact it has been totally refuted everytime you have posted it.
Now to answer your specific allegations:
- Landlord/investors enjoy a 23% discount compared to the individual personal home buyer.
- Individual personal home buyers must pay 29.87% more than landlord/investors.
This a significant inequity between individuals trying to buy their own new homes and landord/investors looking to buy the same single family dwelling as a rental investment.
ROTFLM(_|_)O!
Still playing rich man against poor man aren't you Willy.
You do know of course, that investors are home buyers and renters too, don't you?
Why don't you mention:
These factors more than overcomes any imagined advantage of investor over the homebuyer so that all homebuyers can become an investors too.
But then good socialists never consider becoming investors themselves now do they W.G.
Now, lets take a look at some of your points and see how they hold up:
A typical family purchasing their own new house today has 25% or more of their gross income extracted by the Federal government before they even think about buying a new or even an older house. That is not even counting the tax costs and costs of compliance placed on businesses of an additional 20 to 30% and embedded in the price of the new house.
Of course that landlord/investor also pays the same tax on the house he lives in or rents before he can ever become an "investor/landlord" in the first place. Or do you figure such folks live in NY allies and sleep on park benches.
Additionally, a buyer of an older home, is not charged the NRST, which is the case of most first time buyers of homes.
Actually not, as the Landlord/invester pays the 23% tax on the home he lives in whether rented or purchased, the same manner as any other individual.
Again untrue, the landlord/investor pays the same tax on the home he rents or buys new for his personal use. All individuals are treated the same under the NRST. Infact, because the individual receives the full benefit and control of his gross income, as opposed to merely after tax income under the current system. That plus the NRST prebate paid to ALL households provides an enhanced opportunity for everyone to become investors.
Under the current Income/Payroll tax system, the total contribution of the federal tax system(including taxes in gross wage/salaries) to the price of retail consumption goods and services is 36% for taxes alone. Including cost of compliance at around $600billion/year, increases that percentage to about a 47% total burden with respect to current family consumption expenditure caused by the federal tax system as it exists today.
Frankly, I'll be happy to pay 23% of the total payment for new goods and services, or as you would put it (30% added on) to the tax free price any day. Considering that I have available my full gross pay from which to accrue tax free growth of my savings and investments.
Compared to what we are hit with now:
We must . . . End Tax Slavery Now; Nov '97
by Jarret B. Wollstein
HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY PAY?
According to the Tax Foundation, in 1994 the average American paid 22.4% of his or her income in federal taxes, plus 11.8% in state and local taxes - 34.2% total.
But that's just the beginning! Dr. James Payne of the University of California found that in addition to direct taxes we also pay huge, hidden taxes including:
- Compliance costs - record keeping, monies spent on tax planning, computers and software purchased to fulfill IRS requirements, etc.
- Enforcement costs - IRS audits, field investigations, service center corrections, criminal investigations, litigation, and forced collections.
- Emotional, moral and cultural costs - families forced onto welfare, time and creative energy lost figuring out how to avoid taxes, etc.
For every $1 we pay in direct taxes, we spend an additional $0.65 in compliance costs. And even that figure doesn't include the cost of import duties, license fees and other government regulations. For a typical U.S. family, the real cost of taxes and regulations is at least:
Federal taxes 22.4% of income
State & local taxes 11.8%
Compliance costs 22.2%
Regulatory costs 12.7%70.1% of your income is now consumed by government
Why thank-you, wheezer!
I'm glad you could fill in for me!
Keep up the good work!
Producer prices also don't include services and, since the 22% producer price reduction is for US companies, imported items would not see a reduction in price due to producer prices. Services and imported goods are a larger portion of our consumption than domestic goods.
Hmmm, need to fill in the service sector too I guess.
Unfortunately the analyst of the below piece does not cite his sources in this writup, His comments do at least suggest that service sector prices can fall as much as goods. Especially considering the 22% decline in producer prices was predicated on an NRST that only replaced income taxes where the Linder NRST in HR25 replaces payroll (SS/Medicare) taxes as well.
PDF:American Farm Bureau Analysis of Fair Tax Proposal
| December 1, 2003 Ross Korves, Senior Economist Economic Analysis Team American Farm Bureau Federation An Economic View of the FairTax Proposal Decline of Prices with the FairTax The FairTax proponents have stated that the prices of goods and services would decline by about 25 percent with the implementation of their plan. That would be offset by the sales tax that would be added when purchases are made. Consumers of goods and services pay all of the current taxes imposed on productive activity in the economy. The retail price of a bar of soap has embedded in it all of the property taxes, payroll taxes, income taxes and excise taxes paid by the manufacturing company, the wholesale company and the retail company. The same is true for the taxes paid by a dentist and all of his or her suppliers that are involved in filling a tooth. Studies from Harvard University estimate that about 22 percent of the prices of goods are taxes and 26 percent of the prices of services are taxes. Competition will force companies to lower prices by the full amount of the reduction in embedded taxes. Consumers will be able to make a direct comparison between the old prices with embedded taxes and the new prices plus the retail sales tax. |
Why thank-you, wheezer!
I'm glad you could fill in for me!
Keep up the good work!
Ahhh Willie, no one can fill in for you.
That's why I paged yah!!.
even if consumer prices for US products went down 22%, the price of our total consumption would not go down nearly that much.
bttt
did read where you say import prices won't be affected - i disagree with that... do you have other reasons?
amd are you including or excluding the possibility of wage increases? that is are you attributing the 22% solely to prices or are you allowing for some to be put into higher wages (ie the possibility that the employer's share of payroll tax go to the emp rather than to the emp then prices?)
Wouldn't be fun to get rid of tax attorneys and accountants?
What a thought!
amd are you including or excluding the possibility of wage increases? that is are you attributing the 22% solely to prices or are you allowing for some to be put into higher wages (ie the possibility that the employer's share of payroll tax go to the emp rather than to the emp then prices?)
I assume you address this one to me.
First the average 22% drop in producer prices that is generally referred to in regard to the '97 Jorgenson/Wilcox paper drawn from his General Equilibrium Model in simulating the economic effects of Flat taxes or Retail Sales taxes replacing income taxes alone as they compared to the '96 tax law baseline economy. That 22% is used as a conservative baseline for discussion recognizing repeal of the payroll tax as well would enhance the overall results.
From what I understand of the Jorgenson models the fall in prices in the studies, is a consequence of all economic factors that arise from repeal of the income tax, not just the the tax per-se. IAmong those factors must be included attendant reduction in costs associated with dealing with the tax & legal system, increased productivity achieved from multiple factors including all changes in resource allocations and their consequences.
Obviously labor allocations will adjust in directions that promote productivity as resources are redirected from addressing tax iand towards more productive activites and capital investment. The manner in which those changes take place will undoubtedly be quite varied ranging from natural attrition and not rehiring as productivity increases, transfering personel released from working on tax law into more productive capacities, even to targeted wage increases as merit incentives etc., especially in the expanding economy that is projected in the Jorgenson/Wilcox paper.
So no sources, huh?
what are your reasons for this position? please provide link/sourceI think I explained my reasons.
So no sources, huh?
I don't have any I can find on the web.
You are free to contact
Ross Korves, Senior Economist
Economic Analysis Team, American Farm Bureau Federation
American Farm Bureau Federation Staff Directory
about what he put into his analysis on behalf of the AFBF.
yes you explained that imports don't have the same tax costs built into their prices - we agree on that.
unless i misunderstand you though, you think import prices will increase by the amount of our sales tax - we disagree on that.
i was wanting to better understand that position with which i disagree and so asked for links/sources.
of course this doesn't even touch on cheap overseas labor markets... but that's another topic
yes and thank you for the links - i appreciate the information suporting the claims- i am learning a lot
i still have a question about producer/consumer prices... why is this relevant?
if producer costs are cut by 22%, then why would one think that consumer prices and/or wage increases of corresponding amunt wouldn't follow? doesn't supply/demand and competition require the maximization of profit?
if producer costs are cut by 22%, then why would one think that consumer prices and/or wage increases of corresponding amunt wouldn't follow?
As far as can see it would, or increasing capital assets. Depends on relative price & wage elasticity factors and what is seen by business to buy the greatest bang(productivity and return on investment) for the buck.
doesn't supply/demand and competition require the maximization of profit?
Human behavior might suggest that ;O)
"Honestly, the number of pages is completely meaningless. Red herring."
It is the best way to quantify the cancerous growth in complexity that characterizes the current system. If you have a more meaningful measurement, by all means, I would love to hear it.
"We're talking about very serious business here."
Indeed we are. The current system has long been recognized as a disaster and it gets worse every year. Continuing into the 20th century in an increasingly global economy with a tax code that puts our producers at a decided disadvantage vs their counterparts in other countries is ridiculous. I will grant you that fundamental change has associated risk. As I tried to point out on my previous post, doing nothing has substantial risk associated with it, also. Sorry if I didn't word that as diplomatically as I could have, but the point remains the same.
AG, the link to the Jorgenson/Wilcox paper didn't work for me.
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