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To: 68 grunt
The citizens of the State of New York can decide how they want to live. The Rockefeller drug laws have been on the books for over 30 years -- obviously the citizens have had ample time to decide that they don't like them.

And what is Soares' alternative? "... treatment programs, education and job opportunities are needed to effectively tackle the problem."

Uh-huh. A drug treatment program for a scumbag drug dealer. That'll work. Actually, that'll introduce him to whole new clientele, won't it?

Education and job opportunities? Yeah. Tell the drug dealer with that PhD in astrophysics that he could be putting his education to better use. Tell that 18-year-old 7th grade dropout that he'd be better off making $7.50/hr. at McDonald's than $400./day dealing drugs.

You're not proposing drug freedom -- you're proposing drug anarchy.

20 posted on 09/16/2004 7:03:35 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
"And what is Soares' alternative? "... treatment programs, education and job opportunities are needed to effectively tackle the problem."

Uh-huh. A drug treatment program for a scumbag drug dealer. That'll work. Actually, that'll introduce him to whole new clientele, won't it?"

Your judgment is clouded by your hatred. Step back and think about this. Big drug dealers need to go to prison to for whatever deterrence that will provide and hopefully to get some of the drugs off the streets. But we really need to to look hard at the limitations of the current system when it comes to a lot of these little guys. Most of them are drug addicts. Most of the guys who end up getting busted aren't exactly major drug traffickers. In a lot of cases they aren't even regular drug dealers because of the way the whole narcs and confidential informant game works. One guy gets busted with drugs and the cops scare the heck out of him telling him they're going for the max on him but that if he helps them make some busts they'll either go easy on him or let him slide. He starts running through his brain thinking about who he could set up. He may know some bigger players but he also knows that these are the guys most likely to hurt him or kill him if he narcs them out. So he starts trying to think of who he can set up who won't retaliate, and often those are just people he's gotten high with in the past who might know where to score some dope. Then he puts on a wire and talks them into scoring him a gram, a half gram or whatever, or he talks them into helping his good friend (undercover narc) find some dope. A couple of buys are made and this dufus who thought he was helping out a friend is all of the sudden facing multiple serious felony counts. The CI often walks or gets a suspended sentence and then they lean on this next guy. If he's afraid of his supplier or for some other reason just really doesn't want to stab the supplier in the back, the buck is going to stop there and that guy is going away for a few years.

Now when these little guys go away does it stop the flow of drugs? Hell no, there are plenty of others out there to keep an uninterrupted supply to those who want the product. When the guy goes to prison is he likely to be reformed? Again, hell no, nationwide about 70% of those released from prison are rearrested on felony charges within three years of their release, and those are just the ones who get caught. At least where I live in standard prisons where people go for more than a year, they don't even offer any drug treatment programs, counseling or anything like that, and they aren't going to get anything like that on parole either. They'll just have to meet every few months with a parole officer and once in a blue moon give a urine sample for a drug test all of them have a pretty good idea how to beat.

Aside from making you feel good because you hate these people so much, this whole process is an expensive waste of time that gives us little return on our investment. Keeping people in prison for longer periods may keep them off the streets longer so they won't be out here committing crimes, but most all of them do end up getting after a few years and most fall right back into the same lifestyle. Unless we can get substantial numbers of these addicts off the drugs and steer them toward more productive lives, we are never going to put a lasting dent in all of the drug dealing and other crime addiction to hard drugs causes.

Drug treatment works much better than prison if it's done right and it's a whole lot cheaper for the rest of us. Sticking somebody in a thirty day rehab and then cutting them lose won't work, I'll grant you that. It takes a lot longer than that to get off of these drugs. We need long term solutions that last at least a year, maybe even up to three years that include outpatient counseling, maybe some inpatient treatment and/or halfway houses for people who can't make it and intensive probation. Short term inpatient treatment or even just a little jail time to dry people out is often enough if they can't leave the drugs alone, provided they are kept on a short leash through probation with real sanctions imposed if they get out of line. Drug test them so often that they most won't be able to cheat their way through. Force them to get jobs and take care of their responsibilities under threat of jail. Force them to work the program. Make them participate. Give them homework. Make them pay for at least part of the program. Give them a few chances on minor screw ups because almost all of them will screw up and have relapses, but impose consequences for every single screw up, consequences that increase with every infraction. Anyone who gets new serious charges, has too many small infractions, or otherwise won't cooperate goes straight to prison.

Those who make it through the program should have their records expunged so they'll have the opportunity to get decent jobs and be productive citizens. By the end of the program, they'll be working, they'll have a place to live, most will have turned away from their friends who use drugs and they'll have a head start in leading drug free lives.

This is basically what we are doing with our drug court program. Those of us in our office have worked hard to get the prosecutors to agree to letting people in charged with more serious offenses and there are a lot of people in there now who were selling drugs or involved in kitchen meth labs. Some of them fail out of the program and still go to prison. Some of them do still get into to trouble after they complete our fifteen month program, but most of them haven't been getting back into felony trouble. Recidivism rates are much better than those for people who go to prison. The program is saving the state money. It's a lot cheaper than prison and our prisons are so full now the state is having to let more and more people out before their parole eligibility dates to free up space. Besides saving on prison costs, drug court is taking some of the burden in litigating these cases from the court and our office and the prosecutor's office. All that and it actually works far better than prison at turning peoples lives around.

We have record numbers of people in prison in this country now, more than in any other country in the world. Our rate of incarceration per capita is the highest in the world, far higher than that of most civilized countries. Even so, though crime has gone down considerably here in the last ten years, our crime rate is still very high for a non third world country. It would be stupid for us not to consider other alternatives that might save us money and work better than what we have now.
326 posted on 09/16/2004 1:28:54 PM PDT by TKDietz
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To: robertpaulsen
The citizens of the State of New York can decide how they want to live. The Rockefeller drug laws have been on the books for over 30 years -- obviously the citizens have had ample time to decide that they don't like them.

Well, evidently, enough didn't like them to elect the candidate against them.

461 posted on 09/23/2004 6:37:02 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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