Posted on 10/13/2004 5:24:43 PM PDT by Jacob Kell
Interior Minister Avraham Poraz issued a strongly worded statement Tuesday against incidents of Jews spitting at Christian clergy in Jerusalem, saying he was "repulsed" by the repeated attacks."
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretzdaily.com ...
I think neither of those involved in the incident are typical of their religions.
Sounds more like behavior one might expect from some of the Wahabbi madrassas one reads about than a Jewish yeshiva. I certainly hope this and the assassin of Prime Minister Rabin were exceptions among the rabbinical students.
That student should be immediately kicked out of his Yeshiva. If he isn't kicked out, and more incidents happen from other students, I would start wondering what they are teaching there.
I completely agree.
BTW, I notice that the Jews doing the spitting are labelled "ultra-Orthodox." That label us usually reserved for anti-Zionist Chareidim whom anti-Zionist gentiles like to parade as being on their side in the fight against Zionism. Looks like the anti-Zionist Orthodox aren't quite what the anti-Semites thought they were.
Wow, what monstrously slanderous words against these churches.
Monsttrously disgraceful, I am embarassed to have you in this forum. I guess you sympathise with the Yeshiva student who spat at the Clergy and crucifix. Disgusting.
It is true that I have little use for the ancient historical churches. I come from a Fundamentalist Protestant background myself and understand that you liturgicals hate us with a passion. I have witnessed the scorn of Catholics and Orthodox firsthand (having been Catholic for six years and then investigating Eastern and Armenian Orthodoxy), so it's not as if I'm a total ignoramus on the subject.
First you spew forth slanderous hatred against several Christian churches.
Then you say all those Christian churches hate you and fundamentalists in general. When someone objects to the hateful words, you say they hate you, too.
It seems all you've learned from your exploring and studies is hate. You pour it forth with little prompting, and falsely project it on others. Please take a long look in the mirror, and avoid poisoning future discussions with this ugliness.
BTW, you may be happy to learn that what finally made me a Noachide was an Eastern Orthodox booklet that attacked the Catholic doctrine of "original sin." It said that the true doctrine of human nature was to be found in the Talmud, to which my reaction was, "if it wasn't broken, it didn't need fixing."
So since the Jews had it right, just why did we need a new religion a thousand years later???
If he is not expelled, then there is no difference between that Yeshiva and a Wahabi madrassa.
I don't know what you are ranting about, probably yet more insults for Christians.
Good luck.
Actually my experience is that Catholics, etc. basically ignore Protestantism.
Literally not a single mention of the subject in a single liturgy, Sunday School session, Catholic School religion class, etc.
On the other hand, I had Baptist friends routinely tell me of all sorts of nutty invective by their preachers against Catholics on a regular basis.
I come from a Fundamentalist Protestant background myself and understand that you liturgicals hate us with a passion.
Actually my experience is that Catholics, etc. basically ignore Protestantism.
Literally not a single mention of the subject in a single liturgy, Sunday School session, Catholic School religion class, etc.
On the other hand, I had Baptist friends routinely tell me of all sorts of nutty invective by their preachers against Catholics on a regular basis.
You probably won't believe me, but my experience is the exact opposite. Down here in the Bible Belt Fundamentalist Protestants have gotten to the point of ignoring Catholicism (since it's supposedly a political ally) while whole organizations and publications exist in the Catholic world to demonize Fundamentalists and attack them for believing in Adam and Eve (as if that were some bizarro sectarian belief).
When I joined the Church I was completely unprepared for the hostility in all the tracts and publications, all of which acted as if Fundamentalist Protestantism were the worst thing to happen in all of human history. No, there wasn't much condemnation from the lectern, but the magazines, books, and tracts (as well as anti-Fundamentalist diatribes by the Bishops) more than made up for it. Bishops are the successors of the apostles, are they not?
BTW, the next time someone mentions Jewish prejudice against chr*stianity, perhaps I should mention Catholicism's hostility to the American Heartland?
The love affair with Israel and Judaism by fundivangelist types is VERY recent (most of it post 9/11.)
If you look at American history most of the antisemitism has come from the Protestant side.
Remember the Klan for most of its history was equally focused on hatred of Catholics, Jews, AND blacks.
That is the most idiotic thing I've read here on FR in a long time. Are you really that ignorant? Did you not know that Increase Mather was a chr*stian Zionist (as was Cotton till he changed his mind)? Have you never heard of John Nelson Darby or William Blackstone or C. I. Scofield? No, I suppose not.
If you look at American history most of the antisemitism has come from the Protestant side.
And if you look at chr*stian history most of it has come from the liturgical churches, but the answer to that is "we've been around longer." Don't you suppose the fact that there have always been more Protestants than Catholics in America might have something to do with most anti-Semites, murderers, thieves, and every thing else being Protestant rather than Catholic?
Remember the Klan for most of its history was equally focused on hatred of Catholics, Jews, AND blacks.
See, this is the kind of regurgitation of liberal libels against the rural American Heartland that the American Catholic leadership specializes in. And you are our "allies?" Give me "ultra-Orthodox" Jews who believe the Torah was dictated to Mosheh letter-for-letter any day over the alleged Church of Western Civilization calling for the teaching of the documentary hypothesis in public schools.
You may have read some Catholic apologetics. Occasionally apologists will deal with an accusation lodged at the Church by nonCatholics and defend the Catholic position. On other occasions some publications run a question/answer column and the answers will point out the Catholic position which most often would naturally include the mistake or lack of understanding or unusual interpretation of scripture or the patristic fathers. You of course,should be able to understand that they just can't roll over and play dead,or do you think they should?
I am pro-Israel Catholic and I don't think ANYONE should be spit on....it's disgusting and degrading for the spittee AND the spitter.
PICK a religion and stick to it!! My gosh....you are like a Mexican jumping bean. I pity you and pray you find God.
"but the clergy of the ancient indigenous churches of the middle east. These churches are the most anti-Semitic on earth and support the PLO to the hilt."
Didn't Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer say that that was basically a result of centuries of dhimmitude in the Moslem dominated Middle East?
Our Sunday Visitor publishes some awful stuff, including a little pamphlet (which I've loaned to a friend and never gotten back) which promotes a sort of "new age" evolutionary view of the eschaton. Catholic Digest and Liguorian both have published articles endorsing the documentary hypothesis and claiming the Biblical stories are "myths." Jim Auer used to have a regular feature in Liguorian called "Under 21" in which he consistently taught that the stories of Adam and Eve, Noah, Jonah, etc., never happened but are didactic parables. At the same time these publications have carried articles belittling the "Bible Thumpers" for trying to convert people.
Also, my own official diocesan newspaper not only carried an article calling for the teaching of the documentary hypothesis in public schools but also in one issue speculated that from now on the Catholic Church will concentrate on converting "intellectuals" and leave the simple minded people who believe in the supernatural to the Fundamentalist churches.
I don't suppose you'd believe me when I tell you that I once engaged in a correspondence with the late Archbishop Whelan of Hartford, Connecticut, in which he tried to talk me into accepting higher criticism, rejecting the literal interpretation of the Bible, etc.? I still have his letters. And even Scott Hahn, a convert from evangelicalism, now attacks "Biblical literalism."
You may have read some Catholic apologetics. Occasionally apologists will deal with an accusation lodged at the Church by nonCatholics and defend the Catholic position. On other occasions some publications run a question/answer column and the answers will point out the Catholic position which most often would naturally include the mistake or lack of understanding or unusual interpretation of scripture or the patristic fathers. You of course,should be able to understand that they just can't roll over and play dead,or do you think they should?
Why do so many such apologetics attack Fundamentalists for simply believing that Adam and Eve were real people and that the Bible is inerrant? Where did the Church Fathers endorse evolution or the Bible as mythology? Kindly provide me with a citation.
Are you aware that Karl Keating (a prominent Catholic apologist) spends a great deal of time attacking young earth creationism (and so does New Oxford Review)? Even The Wanderer has carried an article endorsing evolution. I only wish I could show you some of the anti-Fundamentalist tracts I have seen (and I still have a few of them). They are quite disgusting.
Regardless of your own experience or how long you have been Catholic, I stand by my words.
In other words, stay in the religion in which you were born and forget about finding Objective Truth. Gotcha.
I'm sorry my insatiable hunger for Truth offends you.
That may be a factor, but the Middle Eastern churches are the most ancient in the world and preserve the primordial antipathy against the mother religion in a purer form than do most chr*stian churches.
You mentioned you have had about 4 religions...geesh....get real.
Our Sunday Visitor publishes some awful stuff, including a little pamphlet (which I've loaned to a friend and never gotten back) which promotes a sort of "new age" evolutionary view of the eschaton. Catholic Digest and Liguorian both have published articles endorsing the documentary hypothesis and claiming the Biblical stories are "myths." Jim Auer used to have a regular feature in Liguorian called "Under 21" in which he consistently taught that the stories of Adam and Eve, Noah, Jonah, etc., never happened but are didactic parables. .....Zionist Conspirator
It seems, Zionist Conspirator, that you take the view that anybody that does not believe exactly what you believe and therefore does not teach exactly what you believe is attacking you and your religious denomination.
Was the Prodigal Son an actual human being or a character in a parable used as a teaching aid by Jesus?
Does it matter?
Did talking snakes or a whale that apparently had no digestive systems actually exist or were they characters in parables used as a teaching aid by God?
Does it matter?
If two regious people believe one side or the other of those questions and teach according to their belief, are they attacking each other?
Well,you shouldn't. You have spun,twisted and rearranged facts to suit your purposes and,in other words,lied. In Revelations chapters 2 and 3,liars are addressed and declared to be of the Synagogue of Satan,so you need be careful.
If you had merely said there are/were some whacky,goofy,unbiblical,new age interpretations that Catholics are buying into,or have bought,I would not have commented because it is true. But you did not,you spoke about Catholic publications attacking Fundamentalists.
I will cite some excerpted phrases from your post that I was calling you on: "Whole organizations and publications exist in the Catholic world to demonize Fundamentalists"....I was unprepared for the hostility....anti-Fundamentalist diatribes....Catholic hostility...."
Either take back your accusation or know that in the future your posts will lack all credibility in my book. Although I'm just a nobody,and what I think is of little importance in the big picture,you,a child of God should be ashamed of yourself.
The Christian clergy in Jerusalem have not been very helpful to Israel in the "Intafada" war, or whatever you want to call it. I can see why some Israelis would resent them. However, I do not condone acts of violence and that even includes spitting and fist-fights.
Where I live, Jews and Christians coexist peacefully. But we are not living on the battlefield of the war with radical, militant Islamists. I know that the Christians in Jerusalem are stuck in the middle and that I would not want to have to be such a tenuous position. However, the Christian clergy in Jerusalem need to recognize who their allies are. Israel is not going to allow its fundamentalist Jews to harm the Chrtistians. Can anyone say the same thing about the "Palestinians?" I doubt it.
The chr*stian clergy referred to are not Fundamentalist Protestants (which is the only kind of "chr*stian" most Americans have ever heard of) but the clergy of the ancient indigenous churches of the middle east. These churches are the most anti-Semitic on earth and support the PLO to the hilt.
I concur with Zionist Conspirator, most of the Holy Land based bishops of "historial" churches are anti-semetic, anti-zionist, anti-Israel, pro-palestinian, pro-PLO, however you want to say it. One might say that one of the reasons for this is that many of these bishops have their headquarters in Bethlehem, which is PLO/PLA controlled and they are under the thumb of dhimmitude.
For example, Michael Sabbah, the Latin Patriarch, said in 1999, "Christians of the Holy Land also have political rights, though not in the same vision: they have a claim to a political right of sovereignty as Palestinians undistinguished from their Moslem countrymen." In other words, Arab Christians stand shoulder to shoulder with Muslim Arabs against Jews."
He also supports the internationization of sovereignty over Jerusalem (basically placing it under UN control.)
He also derisively says of Christian fundamentalists, "Fundamentalist Christians reject modern and scientific approaches of the Bible. They rather stick to the literality of the text, and especially those apocalyptic referring to the end of the world: the last fight of Harmageddon, the one thousand years reign of the Messiah, the conversion and the Baptism of the Jewish people, and then the final establishment of the kingdom of God. The state of Israel as such is seen to be the divine instrument for these achievements and the precursor that announces these messianic times. Hence the unconditional religious and political support for it."
The first comment in particular is very insulting and down right erroneous. There is actually much more scientific support for the events in Gen. 1-11 than for evolution.
Sabah also quotes from a book review by Allan C. Brownfeld of the book, Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel,by Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky (London:Pluto Press,1999, pp.176. Brownfield (whom Sabah quotes) states, “In recent years there has been a dramatic growth of Jewish fundamentalism in Israel which has manifested itself in vigorous opposition to the peace process and has played a key role, as well, in the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and the murder of 29 Muslims at prayer by the American-born fundamentalist, Baruch Goldstein... The adherents of Jewish fundamentalism in Israel oppose equality for all citizens, especially non-Jews.” The authors note “the total contempt which Jewish fundamentalists show toward non-Jews”.
Somebody remind this man that in Israel, Arabs who have Israeli citizenship actually have the right to vote, have their own polictical parties, etc. Hardly second class citizens.
Sabah also said of fundamentalists, "Fundamentalist theories and attitudes in religion have a direct and negative effect on the development of the conflict. For these believers, though God remains very present in their words and ritualistic prayers, He becomes prisoner of their human aggressive views and attitudes. Hence, instead of being the imitators of God in His bounty towards all His creatures, they force upon God Almighty their human patterns of aggressiveness, hatred and death. With this, they firmly believe that they are the true and sole defenders of God on earth."
He is 100% pro-PLA when he said, "The strong, the Israelis, should have the courage to put an end by themselves to the injustice they are imposing upon the Palestinians through occupation and reprisals. The Palestinians must have the courage to go on claiming for their freedom and the end of their oppression, but using the best ways for this, that is: peaceful ways, and true belief in God which invites to see in the other a brother and sister equally created by God, equally loved by him."
He sees the Jews/Israelis as the agressors and the Palestinians as the victims/oppressed which is a totally false view of the history of that region.
I am quoting Bishop Sabah because he is the Primate of the Catholic Church in the Middle East. I found these at his website, http://www.lpj.org/. However, you can find the middle east based leadership of Lutheran, Orthodox, and other "main line" and "historic" churches making similar claims that the Jews/Israelis are the bullies and the Palestinians are the victims of the Jews/Israeli's as opposed to being the victims of their own rabid hatred of non-Muslims and non-arabs.
That is not your finest post.
So what you are saying is that spitting on someone of a different religion is Ok with you. SICK.
I never said it was ok for anybody to spit on anybody. I just was pointing out that there is plenty of anti-jewish/anti-israeli/pro-PLA/pro-Palestinian commentary being spewed out by Christian "leaders" over there, particularly the Catholic one.
The article was abut Christians being spit on by Jews....I didn't read where you denounced that.
And it appears you missed the fact that the conversation ono the threads had moved on from the article of how spit on who to why christians and jews over there might not like each other very much.
Okay, so you look down on people not born into religions that they never question.
And I'm supposed to care why???
Was the Prodigal Son an actual human being or a character in a parable used as a teaching aid by Jesus?
Does it matter?
Well, since the "new testament" is hooey, no. Though if I were a believer in the nt I'd point out that the nt explicitly states that the parables of J*sus are parables. Not that it makes any difference to anti-supernaturalist demythologizers like yourself.
Did talking snakes or a whale that apparently had no digestive systems actually exist or were they characters in parables used as a teaching aid by God?
Does the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of J*sus or is this a profound symbolism? Ditto the resurrection of J*sus, etc. Of course, I realize that you save your sophisticated scorn for the "old testament."
Does it matter?
Well, I would think it would make a certain amount of difference whether G-d is telling the truth or not, wouldn't you? Oh, but you subscribe to the late medieval concept of "double truth," so it makes no difference to you since something can be theologically true without being scientifically or historically true.
If two regious people believe one side or the other of those questions and teach according to their belief, are they attacking each other?
Excuse me, but saradippity challenged me because she didn't believe that the philosophies that I described were that prominent in the Catholic Church. Thank you for showing her that it does and is in fact the mainstream.
Did you read this guy's snide attacks on Biblical inerrancy, saradippity?
The contents of the "book of revelation" and the rest of the "new testament" do not concern me in the slightest.
Either take back your accusation or know that in the future your posts will lack all credibility in my book. Although I'm just a nobody,and what I think is of little importance in the big picture,you,a child of God should be ashamed of yourself.
I will not take it back. I was there. I saw it. I converted to the Catholic Church and was made to feel like a foreigner in "my own church." As "Polybius" or whatever he calls himself has illustrated, the mainstream of Catholicism rejects Biblical inerrancy. And just where did I lie? Did I lie when I told you about my correspondence with the late Archbishop Whelan? I have four letters from him in my possession as well as some tracts and magazines with the aforementioned content.
Were you ever told to get out of the Church because you didn't belong in it (on All Saint's Day) when you went to it for help trying to survive the blasphemies of a secular Biblical studies department-and then had to got to church because it was a holyday of obligation but didn't take communion because you felt so low and inferior after being told that?
I'm sure you're a nice person, but I know what I know. I am not a liar, whatever you may think of me or however your own experiences differ from mine. I'm sorry, but I stand by my words--today, tomorrow, and the day after.
I am sorry that this wounds you. That was not my intention.
Patriarch Sabbah's remarks attacking Biblical inerrancy show him to be a piece of sh*t. Why aren't conservative Catholics protesting this as they would if bishop in the west were to say it (which they do, all the time)?
I'm so sorry. I should have just sat back while people started two different threads about this specifically in order to stir up hostility towards religious Jews.
Oh well. At least their two threads are getting enough bumps to prevent them from having to start twenty more threads on the same topic.
You are proving by your responses that you think it's OK to spit on someone of another religion. Don't answer again til you think differently. I don't care for Muslims, but I wouldn't CONSIDER spitting on them.
Yu aren't supposed to care what I think about you....only what God KNOWS about you.
Ann is right, Zionist. You shouldn't care what she thinks of you. After all, she doesn't believe that Religious Jews or Jews in general have any right to be angry at the "Christian" leadership in the Middle East such as Sabbah, who speak out in support of the PLA/PLO and against the rights of the Jewish people to their own land.
I don't believe the Yeshiva student should have spit on the cleric but I am willing to understand where the resentment comes from, unlike Ann Archy, who appears to believe that Jews have no justification to their anger against Christian supportors and collaborators with the PLA.
No, but apparently objecting to being spat upon is.
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