Posted on 10/21/2004 6:17:28 PM PDT by mlmr
Again, you're arguing against a strawman. I agree that kids should have to learn English. I do not agree with the fact that schools should be held accountable for poor test scores due to the fact that a kid just started and doesn't speak English.
The "states" have FAILED the educational system. That is WHY we need uniform HIGH STANDARDS. If the "state" was doing it's job through teachers this would NOT be an issue.
Well, the answer to said failure is certainly not federal intervention. Show me where that's worked in the past and perhaps I'll be persuaded. Federal government intervention inevitably leads to negative consequences; that's a tenet of conservatism.
What other options so you see? I am open to them.
Localities should assume a greater portion of the funding for schools. Make people pay for the kids' education directly instead of using property taxes to fund the system. Remove tenure. Fully implement school schoice programs. The list could go on.
I think any of these could be more fully explored, but I don't expect NCLB to help accomplish that.
The point *everyone* needs to understand is that President Bush planned this type of "reform" from the 2000 campaign on. Ted Kennedy had his hand in it because the president knew that the only way to get it passed was to involve high-profile Democrats.
This should tell you something about the complete failure of NCLB to adhere to *any* conservative principles. It's a money pit. It grossly increases the power of the federal government over what should be a local issue. Finally, if it's carried out to its logical conclusion (as the law is written, without amendment), it will end up destroying good suburban schools *in the same way* forced bussing destroyed good inner city schools. (Yes, there *were* good inner city schools in the days before forced bussing, believe it or not.)
The biggest whiners for NCLB are *conservatives.*
What you've expressed is a contradiction in terms. You can't have true, full *local* control of schools and have "choice" at the same time. True local control means that you have a local school board that answers to no one except the state department of education. It means that the *only* students who may go to your district are those who live within the district. Further, in its most ideal form, it means that the *only* local elementary school your kids can attend is the one nearest their home. There would be no bussing into the district, and no bussing within the district, for "racial and economic balance" or anything else. People who bought a house in a particular area would be *guaranteed* that their children would go to the local school.
The local district would be accountable to the state (i.e. making sure it kept adherence to the state laws & regulations), the local school board, and the voters. The federal gov't, as you put it, should have *no* input into education whatever.
If one's school is based on where the family lives, then "choice" comes in by the ability to move wherever you wish. But if education is truly local, once you live in a certain house, your public-schooled children will go to the *local* school.
You mention tax relief. What about the families who pay *no* taxes and who can't afford private education? Should their private education be subsidized by the state? IOW, who should pay for the education of the poor?
Why do you assume that this school has underperforming students? In my experience, schools this liberal and wacko generally are found in wealthier suburbs where the kids do very well academically. (By the same token, the vast # of private schools in the US are the more liberal, the more expensive they are.)
All public educators I have talked to slam NCLB also. I'm a homeschooler.
Sounds like this is a poster child example of *local* control of education. In my daughter's middle school, her social studies teacher spends about half the year on the Middle Ages, feudalism, and how Church history affected society. The room's walls are *covered* with religious art. Their textbook makes not one mention of Islam at all. This is what local education is about. (And I live in a pretty liberal community.)
There is no utility in it at all. For that matter, what's the point of testing *severely retarded* children, or those so autistic they can't speak or write? Yet their scores (i.e. zeroes) have to get averaged into the school's performance as well.
When we talk about NCLB "accountability," let's be very plain. That's jargonese for the following "ultimate" sanctions:
1) forcing the district to pay to transport students to nearby districts that are not "failing." Of course, when you have a situation where *every* school district in the region is failing (because every school district large enough is going to have demographic groups like immigrants or mentally handicapped students), where do those students go?
Also, districts don't have to receive students from the "failing districts" - so far. What's next, forcing them to do so?
That leads to ultimate sanction #2: Disbanding the local school board and putting the district under state (so far) control.
This is intolerable. Parents know 'how good' their local districts are, and when one perceived as good by parents is called "failing" by NCLB, parents get mad. This isn't going to be a factor for the 2004 election, but it will certainly be one in 2008, because the NCLB sanctions take a few years to percolate through.
So I look for some heavy-duty backlash from parents in the 2008 election.
Agree with everything you said. We (conservatives) need to be careful not to dismiss educators' complaints simply because of the source. Even a broken clock is right twice a day...and in this case they're exactly right.
"You can't have "full local" control of schools and have "choice" at the same time."
Why not? Local control of the schools does not prohibit bussing across town to a better school where I live. The school board is elected locally. Though there may be state regulations, at least the state is closer than the federal government, thus more reachable. (Local meaning
city, town, or country.)
I was using him as an example. I have no idea if this school has underperforming students. But if there are, you can bet they are meditating and will soon be designing their own curriculum instead of just buckling down and hitting the books.
These same folks tend to implement the "teaching feature" of the day: outcome based education, "open" schools, etc.
Why does everyone assume that students who go to school in the burbs outperform other kids due to the supposed increased quality of teaching? I'd say the home environment has more to do with it.
I don't assume that. In my own local district, I *know* it from observation and my children's experience.
I think I would change it to French that way when they whine they will have an excuse
Got to agree with you on your last point about decentralization of power. Hopefully Bush can start it during the second term.
"You mention tax relief. What about the families who pay *no* taxes and who can't afford private education? Should their private education be subsidized by the state? IOW, who should pay for the education of the poor?"
Those that don't pay taxes ... can't they make allowances for sending their kids to school? Why can't those that NEED the money for private school HAVE IT? SHOULD we all be FORCED to send our children to PUBLIC school for the sake of those who can't manage their money?
WHY not let education be competitve? For those that want vouchers let them have the 12K they ALREADY pay in TAXES. For those that "don't pay taxes" let them send their kids to public school if they can't manage their money? Atleast those that don't want public school AND PAY TAXES aren't coerced into sending their kids there.
WHY keep a failed systemm in place? Dreaming up exceptional circumsances will not change the fact that our scores in the US when compared to the WORLD are in tht toilet.
No, you don't get it. It has to start one DAY ONE in school. It IS the districts that are failing kids with precisely your attitude! Yes, we do need ZERO tolerance when it comes to reading writing and speakng English. If they don't have them keep repeating the grade over and over and over again till they so speak, read and write English. Your excuses are a cover for status quo.
"Again, you're arguing against a strawman. I agree that kids should have to learn English. I do not agree with the fact that schools should be held accountable for poor test scores due to the fact that a kid just started and doesn't speak English."
No I am not. Double check your understanding of what a "straw man" argument is. If schools are the ones TEACHING then by golly who IS responisble? It IS up to teachers to change that. it will take time to get scores UP but that doesn't mean they should NOT he held accoutable for progress like you ar suggesting.
The "states" have FAILED the educational system. That is WHY we need uniform HIGH STANDARDS. If the "state" was doing it's job through teachers this would NOT be an issue.
"Well, the answer to said failure is certainly not federal intervention. Show me where that's worked in the past and perhaps I'll be persuaded. Federal government intervention inevitably leads to negative consequences; that's a tenet of conservatism."
What other options so you see? I am open to them.
"Localities should assume a greater portion of the funding for schools. Make people pay for the kids' education directly instead of using property taxes to fund the system. Remove tenure. Fully implement school schoice programs. The list could go on."
I'm all for that. STOP taxing people TOTALLY for public education is the RIGHT way to go. Definitely remove tenure. I LIKE your ideas.
"I think any of these could be more fully explored, but I don't expect NCLB to help accomplish that."
As you can see some just can't get past PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION. A few on here are DEFENDING IT. NCLB is one way to try and get public schools to TEACH and be accountable. A large majority of people don't want to acknowledge that our public education system is a disaster.
LOL... Every time I hear "No Child Left Behind" I think - Teach to the Lowest Common Denominator. I can't imagine what the schools will be like when all the intelligent ones start raising a ruckus due to being bored out of their gourds - Oh yeah (hitting self on forehead) I forgot - RITALIN!!!
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