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British officers lobbied US to send troops to danger zone
timesonline.co.uk ^ | October 24, 2004 | Nicholas Rufford and Peter Almond

Posted on 10/23/2004 10:02:05 PM PDT by Destro

October 24, 2004

British officers lobbied US to send troops to danger zone

Nicholas Rufford and Peter Almond

THE decision to send Black Watch troops into Iraq’s “triangle of death” followed requests by British military chiefs to take over a US- controlled area. British officers have been “champing at the bit” for months to be allowed the chance to demonstrate what they believed are superior skills in restoring order, according to a senior military source.

Some officers believe that American ‘heavy-handedness’ in Iraq is prolonging the conflict. The revelation casts new light on the decision to send 850 British troops to boost American forces. The official position remains that Washington asked for support. It led to accusations that Britain was boosting President George W Bush’s election ambitions by supporting the campaign.

However, the request came only after British officers made it clear to their American counterparts that they would be receptive to an approach. Geoff Hoon, the defence secretary, has not revealed the extent of the British Army’s enthusiasm for the mission for fear of appearing critical of America.

General Sir Mike Jackson, chief of the general staff, is among senior British officers who have praised British successes in southern Iraq and regretted that the forces had not taken over an area in or around Baghdad at the start of the war.

Jackson has come closest to disapproving of some American tactics, saying that US military culture “differed significantly” from Britain’s. During the 2003 Iraq conflict he said: “We have a very considerable hearts and minds challenge.”

The deployment is set to go ahead despite an appeal by Margaret Hassan, the British aid worker kidnapped in Baghdad, not to send British troops nearer the city.

Tahseen Ali Hassan, her husband, responded to a video released by her captors by making a fresh call for her release.

“It was very painful to see my wife crying,” he told the Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television station. “The scene pained, distressed and saddened her friends and loved ones.”

British troops could remain in central Iraq next year if the Black Watch mission is successful and there could be pressure on the American military to modify its approach.

British military chiefs believe that they are better than American forces at turning civilians against insurgents by winning hearts and minds.

The Ministry of Defence would not comment directly on the claim but reiterated that “one of the great strengths of multinational operations is that they bring together different nations with different procedures. This allows the coalition to call upon the strengths of each nation”.

The British battle group will attempt to restore order in an area around the lawless towns of Mahmudiya, Iskandariya and Latifiya. Significantly, the Black Watch will not be taking its Challenger II tanks because it does not see the need for heavy armour.

Growing resistance in the area since April has claimed more than 200 American military casualties, including at least 10 deaths. It is also thought to be the location where foreign hostages, including Ken Bigley, have been held and murdered. Its population of 900,000 people include the ancestors of tribesmen who in 1920 launched a ferocious rebellion against British rule.

A British military spokesman in Basra said that the troops were “raring to go”.

The US military said yesterday that it had captured a lieutenant of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian militant blamed for hostage beheadings and suicide bombings. Five others were arrested in the same raids yesterday in the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah.

Violence continued in other parts of Iraq. Twenty members of Iraq’s security forces were killed in a spate of insurgent attacks across the country, including 16 police who died in a suicide bombing at an Iraqi police post near the al-Asad base of the US marines west of Baghdad. Up to 40 people were wounded in the attack.

The Army of Ansar al-Sunna, an Iraqi militant group, said it had beheaded an Iraqi man accused of collaborating with US forces in the northern city of Mosul and posted pictures of the killing on the internet.

In Britain yesterday 250 people demonstrated in Camperdown Park, Dundee, against plans for the merger of Scottish regiments.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: iraq

1 posted on 10/23/2004 10:02:06 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Destro

I wish UK forces the best up in the 'hot' zone.
but ...take your tanks....


2 posted on 10/23/2004 10:05:24 PM PDT by LeoWindhorse
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To: Destro

The bagpipes alone ought to clear out the area and make it safe for democracy.


3 posted on 10/23/2004 10:14:21 PM PDT by cinnathepoet (Directly, I am going to Caesar's funeral)
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To: cinnathepoet
The bagpipes alone ought to clear out the area and make it safe for democracy.

I love the sound of bagpipes in the morning... it sounds like... victory...

4 posted on 10/23/2004 10:19:52 PM PDT by infowarrior (TANSTAAFL)
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To: LeoWindhorse

They managed earlier in the war with just bayonets.


5 posted on 10/23/2004 10:23:10 PM PDT by cinnathepoet (Directly, I am going to Caesar's funeral)
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To: Destro
"It is also thought to be the location where foreign hostages, including Ken Bigley, have been held and murdered. Its population of 900,000 people include the ancestors of tribesmen who in 1920 launched a ferocious rebellion against British rule."

Ancestors? That would be descendants.
6 posted on 10/23/2004 10:25:07 PM PDT by Max Combined (I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine...)
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To: Destro

"British military chiefs believe that they are better than American forces at turning civilians against insurgents by winning hearts and minds."

I am afraid that a whole bunch of Black Watch troopers are going to die before the Brits admit that the Americans have it right. I would be very happy to be proven wrong.


7 posted on 10/23/2004 10:29:34 PM PDT by Max Combined (I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine...)
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To: Max Combined

No, it is correct. The current ones are the descendants the ones that gave the Brits such a hard time were ancestors.


8 posted on 10/23/2004 10:31:57 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: infowarrior; cinnathepoet
Marine's bagpipes make unique sound in Iraq

Submitted by: I Marine Expeditionary Force

Story by: Computed Name: Army Master Sgt. Robert Cargie

Story Identification #: 20036641036

CAMP BABYLON, Iraq(June 6, 2003) -- In the distance there was a musical sound that, while familiar, normally wasn't heard in the compound of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force headquarters in central Iraq. But there it was, musical, curious, and incongruous.

Through some bushes and down a dusty trail the sight of a dozen or so Marines huddled came into view. The music became louder and more persistent. A little farther and there he was -- the musician. He was standing almost at attention, cheeks puffed with air. It was a Marine playing bagpipes, in the middle of Iraq.

Lt. Col. Gregor Dinse, an I MEF G-2 (intelligence) operations officer, was the one playing the bagpipes.

"I take them wherever I go," said Dinse. "They have been to pretty much everywhere I have been to with the Marine Corps."

This includes the forests of Oregon, the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center 29 Palms, Calif., Kuwait, and now Iraq.

Dinse, a reservist from Portland, Ore., stands six feet four inches tall. He is an imposing figure without the bagpipes. With it, he's a giant. He's been playing "the pipes," as he calls them, for 14 years. Dinse started lessons because of his father.

"It's probably the only thing my father and I have in common," Dinse said with a slight tone of regret. "It is an instrument of history and my father was an avid historian, like I am."

As he talks about the history of the bagpipes, what he does when he is not in uniform, becomes apparent. Dinse is a high school teacher. He presents information as if he has a class in front of him. He is animated and passionate about the subject.

"The British military tradition made the bagpipes popular," said Dinse. "The Scottish Highlanders would bring the bagpipes with them into battle. The pipers would be at the front of the charge."

Although of German descent, Dinse embraced this tradition. In Portland, he is Pipe Sergeant for the Clan McClay Pipe Band. Understandably, Dinse hasn't been "actively serving" in that capacity since his activation. The band plays at various parades and functions around Portland and across the United States and Canada.

At one point during the war, Dinse was watching CNN and saw bagpipers from his band playing taps at the funeral for an army staff sergeant killed in action during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

"There, in the middle of the war, I'm watching television and I see my band," Dinse said. "It was a very respectful expression."

Dinse calls these bagpipes his "combat pipes". His wife gave it to him as a present. The instrument weighs just about 8 pounds, not much of a burden in that respect, according to Dinse but it is a little cumbersome. For protection, he wraps the bagpipes up in Gortex and puts it in a large plastic tube for protection. Dinse said that most people think it's a map case. He is able to fit it in with his other equipment "without that much trouble."

Dinse works sixteen-hour days handling intelligence issues for I MEF. But when time allows, and he can remove himself from his responsibilities, he brings the bagpipes out. He said playing allows him to relax.

"For me its an escape," Dinse said. "I think it forces me to concentrate on something totally different than work. You get to get out there and play."

Calling music "an expression of the soul," Dinse is more than happy to share a little bit of his soul with Marines that wander by.

"I like playing for other people," said Dinse. "Bagpipes have an incredible impact, you can see that. I almost always get smiles."

As Dinse played, the audience grew. In between tunes, he would answer questions. It was as if he was back in the classroom. Dinse reeled when someone asked what he thought about people who consider the bagpipes shrill.

"It's not exactly a subtle instrument," Dinse said with a big grin. "It's got a big, traditional sound. It can be played happily or gravely. The bagpipes affect people's emotions, sometimes not in a positive way."

When asked about the oddity of playing near the ruins of Babylon and a former presidential palace of Saddam Hussein, Dinse invoked his love of history again and went back to the British army.

He replied with a touch of sarcasm, "Iraq is no stranger to the sound of the bagpipe." He implied that the British controlled Iraq at the turn of the twentieth century and fought a few battles here.

After his reply, Dinse put the bagpipe's reed to his lips, filled the bellows with air and began to play the Marine Corps hymn. The Marines around him came to attention. Dinse played the hymn with a little more verve than he had the previous tune. This was, as if, to tell anyone who could hear the music that the Marine Corps now had its place in Iraqi history.

9 posted on 10/23/2004 10:36:34 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro

Here comes the Black Watch to save the day.
10 posted on 10/23/2004 10:43:01 PM PDT by bahblahbah
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To: Max Combined

Regrettably I have to agree with you. The Brits have been down around Basrah with the Shi'ites. They have yet to deal with Saddam's Sunnis.

There is a very good reason why the Sunni Triangle is considered the most dangerous part of Iraq and it has nothing to do with the American approach. Let's hope they come to their senses quickly.


11 posted on 10/23/2004 10:52:24 PM PDT by kuma
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To: Destro

Have at it Lads and GodSpeed!


12 posted on 10/23/2004 11:16:52 PM PDT by Khurkris (Even from far away, some things are damned funny!)
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To: kuma

Americans heavy handedness...my , my, who would have thought war would be rough.


13 posted on 10/23/2004 11:57:24 PM PDT by processing please hold (All I ever need to know about Islam, I learned on 9-11)
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To: Destro

British military chiefs believe that they are better than American forces at turning civilians against insurgents by winning hearts and minds
****
Typical British arrogance. Baghdad isn't Basra; they aren't going to be able to sweet-talk these vicious pricks.

Still, I wish the Brits Godspeed on their mission. I'd love to be wrong, for all our sakes.


14 posted on 10/24/2004 12:21:32 AM PDT by Finalapproach29er ({about the news media} "We'll tell you any sh** you want hear" : Howard Beale --> NETWORK)
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To: Destro

Yeah, right. Show us how it's done, chaps. Sounds like Monty's ghost still runs the British Army.


15 posted on 10/24/2004 12:22:56 AM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: Destro

No tanks. They're going to be masticated and expectorated.


16 posted on 10/24/2004 6:06:59 AM PDT by milemark (Proud to be an infidel.)
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To: Destro
"No, it is correct."

No, as it is written, it is incorrect.

The relative sentence, is written as follows:

"Its population of 900,000 people include the ancestors of tribesmen who in 1920 launched a ferocious rebellion against British rule."

Its current population of 900,000 people cannot include the ancestors of tribesmen who gave the Brits a hard time in 1920. The ancestors of the folks who gave the Brits a hard time back in 1920 were around even earlier than 1920.

It is the descendants of tribesmen who in 1920 launched a ferocious rebellion against British rule who now comprise a portion of the current population of 900,000 people.

It is not too hard to understand and I have to question your reading and/or logical abilities if you cannot discern the difference between descendants and ancestors even when it is pointed out to you.
17 posted on 10/24/2004 7:14:13 AM PDT by Max Combined (I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine...)
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To: All

"British military chiefs believe that they are better than American forces at turning civilians against insurgents by winning hearts and minds."

I am afraid that a whole bunch of Black Watch troopers are going to die before the Brits admit that the Americans have it right. I would be very happy to be proven wrong.


Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 Baghdad — Insurgents killed three British troops and wounded eight others from a unit sent to high-risk central Iraq to free U.S. forces for an assault on the militant stronghold Fallujah.


18 posted on 11/04/2004 1:47:53 PM PST by Max Combined (I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine...)
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To: Destro

bump


19 posted on 11/07/2004 8:30:03 AM PST by Max Combined (There is in human nature generally more of the fool than of the wise.)
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