Posted on 11/16/2004 8:21:23 AM PST by SeasideSparrow
ACLU = anti-civil liberties union
It is called freedom of association. Form your own youth organization. You know, like the atheist hospitals, schools, and other charities. The sponsorship of a scout troop consists of providing a safe place to meet. The annual charter fee is $20.00. Trust me, your tax dollars aren't going to support a religion. I hope the Boy Scouts never surrender on the 3 Gs, God, Girls, and Gays.
No one (especially me) is asking the scouts to give up God. The bottom line is that the scouts didn't care 15 years ago about having atheists and now they have become a religiously exclusive organization. I hope you’re happy about keeping my kids out of scouts for no good reason. Wouldn't want the rest of the kids to get the evil secularist cooties.
God has been in scout oath and law since its inception. The atheists made it an issue, just like the gays made sexual orientation an issue. No adult leader was ever asked his sexual orientation on an application. Back anyone into a corner and they will fight back. If you want your sons to experience scouting without God, then start an atheist youth program. Just don't impose your beliefs on those who adhere to the BSA the way it exists and always has existed. It seems pretty simple to me.
I recited the scout oath all the way up to Life Scout as did my father (an eagle). I was never asked by anyone to "accept a God". The scouts never imposed belief on me and I never imposed my beliefs on them. I just accepted the nature of the oath and that others had a reverence for God, as I had at one time. It was not something I chose to challenge. I really did love the experience of scouting - its something I don't think will ever be duplicated in other groups. The sense of heritage - knowing that my father had been through it and was a scoutmaster himself in my years. I try keeping positive about it and remember "what was", and find other ways for my kids to have fun. But I'll hold a bit of animosity to the BSA for closing that door. I had saved my uniform and other scouting equipment for the boys to have, now they are just relics that they will never be able to appreciate.
It is, unfortunately, absolutely true. And, I have to admit, this one really pissed me off! The fearless leader of our Department of Defense rolls over for a bunch of slip-and-fall pukes at the ACLU? I grew up in the Air Force (my dad retired as a CMSgt), I went from Cub Scout to Eagle in Air Force-sponsored troops, and spent 20 years in the Army. While the military can survive without the BSA, as mentioned above by some smartass, the officers and NCOs in those troops, role models all - my dad included - helped many of us through some pretty difficult times. And it had diddly to do with preparing any of us for military service. I, for one, think that having military officers and NCOs as role models for young men is a pretty damned good idea.
It is unfortunate that you did not come to understand what an oath is. I have a problem with people who join any organization, take an oath and not mean it. You can't redefine Boy Scouts to meet your definition. It is what it is, a belief in God and all. The fact that you chose to be dishonest about the oath doesn't change the nature of scouting. Sounds to me like you missed some of the Scout laws too, not just the oath. It is more than learning skills, it is a chosen way of life. It is not imposed on anyone. No one is forced into Boy Scouts. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and start your own organization that reflects your values and beliefs, instead of trying to impose your values and beliefs on an existing organization. "On My Honor..." is taught to mean something more than mere words.
State clearly how I was being dishonest in reciting my oath. Am I lying every time I recite the pledge of allegiance "..Under God..."? Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't share the same moral values. Oaths call upon God as a witness to fulfill your pledge ( check your dictionary ).Is not asking for BELIEF. Lets take this a bit further - can I never be a witness in court because I can't be trusted? Thats an oath under God too. Perhaps I should make my own courts? My own pledge of allegiance?
Your premise that I don't understand the oath is wrong. And I'm not redefining the Boy Scouts ( try actually reading what I've said in my previous posts).
The BSA hasn't changed. Closet atheists are allowed now just as they have always been.
What's your trip - militant atheism and homo-promotion?
Nah, I'm not a militant atheist, just a patriotic one. And I'm not trying to mix my thing with the homosexual agenda.
I had a good meeting today with a local scout master this afternoon. He's a retired Marine and his personality is a lot like mine. His philosophy as he put it: "The door is always open , but its my way or the highway. If a kid screws up, it will be my boot that kicks him out the door." He pointed at his left boot which did look a bit worn from years of ass kicking LOL. Bottom line for him is that its all about the kids, which made me happy to hear. I haven't checked to see if the cub scout pack has someone like this running the show.
I checked into Campfire USA , and they sound like a total PC fairy ground. All the other local organizations lack the sense of community (local and international) that BSA has. I'm going to weigh my options, still a little miffed at national's policy. But if local doesn't care, why should I?
ACLU = Anti-Christian Liberties Union
I suggest we check our local United Way organizations to see if they've stopped contributing to the Boy Scouts.
If they have, I suggest we contact our employers to see if they're contributing to the United Way and urge them to stop. Talk with other employees and ask them to do the same.
Hey, how much is liberty worth? We're not paying in blood yet.
This is like war. The more we retreat the stronger the ACLU gets. The more we advance, the more they retreat.
When you send donations to the Boy Scouts, send them an encouraging letter explaining why - then make a copy and send that to the United Way.
Scout Oath (or Promise)
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
If you do not believe in God then obviously you can have no duty to God
Next:
Scout Law
TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
How can you be reverent toward God if you do not believe in God?
By definition, an atheist can not do his duty to God nor can he is reverent and therefore he can not obey the Scout law.
By taking the Scout Oath, an atheist is not trustworthy, since he is not telling the truth concerning his beliefs, he is not keeping his promises nor is he being honest.
You can not be a Boy Scout and be an atheist. This conclusion is self evident. You are engaged in sophistry. It is pointless.
You can acknowledge that this country is one Nation under God, in the pledge of allegiance. Certainly, that is true as a statement of fact. You are pledging anything regarding your relationship with God. You are not promising to do your duty to God nor be reverent or be faithful in your religious duties as with Scouts.
The oath in court has long since been changed to remove any mention of God. Now, witnesses need only swear or affirm to tell the truth. That fact that you are an atheist is not an impediment to you being a witness in court.
You have previously demonstrated a disregard for oaths and honor, and that would cast doubt on your affirmation to tell the truth in court. That has nothing to do with your atheism, but rather with your previous conduct and your persistence in your futile attempt to justify it.
Atheists may recite the pledge and testify in court. You were not challenged to create your own pledge nor your own court. I challenged you to start your own youth organization for atheists and leave Boy Scouting alone. Try confining your argument to the subject.
I must have missed the part that says that a lack in faith in God means I can't be REVERENT (respect) God. I respect all kinds of things I don't personally believe in. I can also carry out duties to things in which I don't personally beleive in. None of those things in the Oath state that I should BELIEVE in God. The Oath doesn't say " A scout should believe in God". If that was the case, your arguement would be justified.
But you know what Scales, If the brass at BSA doesn't want atheists, I'll respect their wishes. I don't think its the right decision, but I'll respect the decision. I've already found some alternatives for my children.
That was very well stated, kudos for keeping it above the waste line this time. I was a Lutheran when I got into scouts and I think my disillusionment with religion happened around Second Class. When you are that age, thinking about the philosophical ramifications of things doesn't quite sink in. I just now realized that I wasn't serving God, I was acting on values that I had been raised on by my church. When my faith had ended, I was going through the motions without thinking about WHO I was serving. I was serving the scouts and acting on my own morals, but I wasn't serving the entity I once believed in - the entity I took an oath to serve. I was dishonest without even realizing it. Only took 17 years to come to that. I'm even more depressed now but at least the anger is passed. Why be mad at an organization for enforcing its values?
Most distressing news.
Faith is confidence in ones belief, should ones belief cease, so does the faith. An atheist doesn't choose to accept non-belief, rather they just stop believing. A topic for a different thread perhaps.
Thanks for the kind words.
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