'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says; Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed

Oakland Tribune ^ | 11/20/04 | Harrison Sheppard

[LibertarianInExile]

I saw their 'answer' and thought, this is a libertarian magazine?!?!

How about we leave people's cars alone and let the market do the talking!?!? Even the socialist KRAUTS don't have speed limits!

[LibertarianInExile]

I am for market-based innovation--NOT government funding for it. Hydrogen is nothing but a huge government program waiting to happen.

[LibertarianInExile]

You got dat right BUMP!

[LibertarianInExile]

Oh, that would make sense that just the people living near the hundreds of new power plants that need to be built to handle hydrogen will suffer from the exhaust, because of course they deserve to suck fumes more than the drivers themselves...oh, wait, we can't build those power plants, because the envirowusses don't want those, either. /sarcasm

Let the market handle the lifting and stay away from government-imposed 'solutions' like hydrogen.

[timestax]

B O O M !!

[timestax]

er, I mean K A -B O O M !!

[timestax]

bttt

[Boot Hill]

"There is a sucker born every minute."

-----------------------

"Something I have come across on the internet is the Interstate Traveler Project. It combines Maglev rail travel with utility transportation (i.e. water, natural gas, electricity, fiber optics, high temperature superconducting cable, hydrogen, etc.). The entire length of the rail system is covered with solar power panels (each mile of rail producing about 844,800 watts of electricity per hour at peak time). Meaning that a 100 mile long installation supporting 8.4 million square feet of solar cells would generates about 84 megawatts per hour peak time. Additionally, the rail system can be used for producing hydrogen (using utility substations) and clean water. A rail the length of 100 miles would produce over 33,000 kg of hydrogen per hour at peak time, the energy equivalent of about 33,000 gallons of gasoline."   (posted by CellPhoneSurfer in #47)

-----------------------

1. There is no such physical dimension as "watts per hour".

2. "Peak time" power production is totally irrelevant. Only the average production that can be sustained over time in relevant.

3. "8.4 million square feet" of solar panels will NOT produce "84 megawatts" of power. It will only average 13.9MW of power.

4. Even at "84 megawatts", such a system will NOT produce the energy equivalent of "33,000 gallons of gasoline" per hour. 84 Mega Watts will only produce the energy equivalent of about 1,861 gallons of gasoline per hour.

5. When using the TRUE power output of the array described, 13.9MW, the hydrogen production would only be the energy equivalent of about 310 gallons of gasoline per hour.

6. The cost of 8.4 million square feet of solar panels would be in excess of 400 million dollars, or more than 600 million dollars, installed.

7. 8.4 million square feet of solar panels would consume the entire world's production of solar panels for over a year, just for this one short 100 mile stretch of track.

8. At a cost of $600 million and a production of 310 gallons of gasoline per hour, this system will pay for itself in only 88 years.

More brilliant thinking from the solar power scam artists. Only a complete fool would fall for their proposal.

--Boot Hill

[SierraWasp]

Biodiesel... Another totally uneconomical fiction! You couldn't plant enough biomass if you used all the airable land in the nation to even supply the nations fuel needs for just one month!!!

All you dreamers have got to get off the acid and stop havin flashbacks of "back to the future!" Puuleese!!!

[SierraWasp]

"...this is a libertarian magazine?!?!"

I know! I was as disappointed as I was to see FReepers who avow themselves to be "Conservatives," cheering a Schwarzenegger/Kennedy to become a replacement for a Gray Davis/Jerry Brown!!!

This is completely out of character for "Reason" mag!!!

Is conservatism losing it's collective mind these days???

It certainly is losing it's consistency in some people's minds!!!

[SierraWasp]

"Hydrogen cannot be seriously considered a fuel when it takes more energy to create it than it produces."

I know... It's like too many people are doing an "Art Bell" and switching off any learning they ever had and switching to some supersillyus envirowhacko belief system, or something! It's painfull to watch otherwise intelligent FReepers suck into some of this dubious mythology!!!

[LibertarianInExile]

I picked up a couple of old copies of Reason and found it to be interesting but not what I'd consider right-leaning libertarianism (they seem to accept pretty commonly articles from leftists who would use the feds to enforce 'rights'). On the other hand, their commentary didn't seem annoyingly doctrinaire, which National Review and Weekly Standard can become. As a result, while Reason is not my kind of libertarianism exactly, I'd say that it was nonetheless more worth reading than crap like USnooze or NewsWeak.

And consistency on FR is pretty uncommon. It's hard to be perfectly consistent with so much information and situational ethics in play, although it sure would be nice if some people were reflexively Constitutional conservatives instead of reflexively GOP party hacks.

[LibertarianInExile]

I thought biodiesel included anything that might qualify as a fuel, like recycled vegetable cooking oil. But getting back to the point--why should GOVERNMENT do it, even if it is 'good' and 'economical' and 'pollutes less,' if the market won't?!?! Let the market decide what it wants!

[SierraWasp]

"Let the market decide what it wants!"

Oh! I fully agree! On both your replies. I must state again that all the recycled vegetable cooking oil added to all the biomess produced by all the airable land in the nation would supply approximately a month and a day of the current demand for fuel in this nation.

But it's pointless to argue with the "True Believers!" They fixate on some vague concept like Art Bell, or GovernMental EnvironMentalists and will NOT be talked out of it, no matter what's bogus, or pure bunk!!! And they go on, and on... and on and on!!!

So called "Conservatives" who aren't firmly anchored in constitutional principles, just drift from pillar to post with the whim of the multitudes, chasing after popular celebrities as their saviors.

I say... Never fall in love with a politician, or even a celebrity trying to act like one... They'll break your heart everytime!!!

[farmfriend]

I say... Never fall in love with a politician, or even a celebrity trying to act like one... They'll break your heart everytime!!!

I shy away from the unnaturally muscled. I prefer the nerdy types. Pocket protectors welcome.

[SierraWasp]

Eeee Gads!!! What kinda pocket pertecters you tawlkin about? (snort!)

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Time will tell -- I am cutting him some slack since he was handed a very large bucket of horse excrement to deal with.

Very true, but he seems to be losing his focus rather badly.

[farmfriend]

Glow in the dark ones!

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Pocket protectors welcome.

I have some of those in storage along with my slide rules....

[farmfriend]

I have some of those in storage along with my slide rules....

Oh you sly dog you. You know there is a picture of me in the freeper photo album.